How do I prove my existence?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Namelesss
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Namelesss »

Greta wrote: February 8th, 2018, 3:08 am
Namelesss wrote: February 7th, 2018, 1:34 am It is as naive to assume that kicking a rock 'proves' anything, any more than walking away from it 'proves' motion (logically impossible).
Everything can be denied aside from physical pain.
Not so.
Pain is just one more feeling to perceive, like joy or sad (sad can be quite painful), and they all pass.
Pain is no different than anything else in existence, it is perceived of 'Mind'.
While science is a work in progress, it would be deliberately blinkered to deny that researchers have come closer to the truth. These researchers are not fools, not naive, often brilliant, sometimes geniuses. Our ancestors' hard work has brought humanity tremendous advancement in all areas and I personally feel tremendous gratitude towards them for their brilliance, dedication and effort that not only made my life possible, but brought us closer to truth.
I'm not sure what purpose this little emotional drama has to do with the subject at hand.
As you relinquishing your own ability to think critically for yourself in favor of some ancients who could'? Even though they were wrong about so much, as 'science' is constantly finding?
Quantum is just finding what the Eastern mystics and philosophers have Known for millennia.They had no neurotic need to 'prove' what they Knew/intuited millennia ago.
Science is validating the Easterners every day!
Refuting the Westerners, likewise.
Absolute truth, as Kant and probably every other sane person on the forum (or any forum) would recognise, is not possible.

So, anyone who disagrees with your beliefs is 'insane'.
Okay... You DO realize that you are on a philosophy forum?
Despite your fallacious and emotional reaction, if you'd like to discuss the fallacy of your 'belief' in the impossibility of transcendental Truth, without the emotion, I'd be glad to oblige.
Kant doesn't impress me, so hauling out your tin god means nothing to me. Show me the real cutting edge science, show me YOUR inescapable logic, synthesize your own theory, support it, and I'll listen.
Coming at me with "everyone thinks so" is a sure sign that what you offer is a fallacy and just plain wrong.
After all, we are inside looking out, and thus can only formulate provisional overviews based on what is observable. Then again, if we were outside looking in there would be an equivalent discrepancy, lacking in the internal perspective.

Inside/outside are meaningless and more false distinctions.
What is the boundary of 'inside', the inside of your eyelids?
So researchers and theorists simply do the best they can in understanding the nature of reality, and their best is far better and more rigorous than most people can manage, which is why are in that profession.
Your hero worship, your abdication of original critical thought (philosophy), brings the following to mind;

...philosophers and not "philosophologists", a term coined by Robert Pirsig ("Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", "Lila") to denote people who study other people's philosophy but cannot do philosophy themselves. He also says that most people who consider themselves philosophers are actually philosophologists. The difference between a philosopher and a philosophologist is like the difference between an art and aesthetics; one does and the other studies what the other does and theorizes about it.

Respectfully submitted! *__-
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Sy Borg
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Sy Borg »

Namelesss wrote: February 8th, 2018, 9:50 pm
Greta wrote: February 8th, 2018, 3:08 am
Everything can be denied aside from physical pain.
Not so.
Pain is just one more feeling to perceive, like joy or sad (sad can be quite painful), and they all pass.
Pain is no different than anything else in existence, it is perceived of 'Mind'.
It is easy to reduce everything into an abstraction when safely tapping on a keyboard. "Oh pain is no different to x" says he - until he experiences it for real. Pain does not necessarily pass, failing death.
Namelesss wrote:
While science is a work in progress, it would be deliberately blinkered to deny that researchers have come closer to the truth. These researchers are not fools, not naive, often brilliant, sometimes geniuses. Our ancestors' hard work has brought humanity tremendous advancement in all areas and I personally feel tremendous gratitude towards them for their brilliance, dedication and effort that not only made my life possible, but brought us closer to truth.
I'm not sure what purpose this little emotional drama has to do with the subject at hand.
As you relinquishing your own ability to think critically for yourself in favor of some ancients who could'? Even though they were wrong about so much, as 'science' is constantly finding?
Quantum is just finding what the Eastern mystics and philosophers have Known for millennia.They had no neurotic need to 'prove' what they Knew/intuited millennia ago.
Science is validating the Easterners every day!
Refuting the Westerners, likewise.
There was no "emotional drama". Your misrepresentation is noted, and the motive behind such a misrepresentation considered. I am not interested in east v west competition. I'll leave that for those with points to prove.

If not for all those ancients being wrong you would not be in a position to posture about how pain means nothing - you would not even exist. Not bad for wrong people. Why do you think their so-called "wrongness" was so effective as regards survival?

I have no idea about any "neurotic need" to prove anything - that's another of your misinterpretations. Scientists actually don't just say things because it occurs to them, but because the evidence of their work points in that direction.
Namelesss wrote:
Absolute truth, as Kant and probably every other sane person on the forum (or any forum) would recognise, is not possible.

So, anyone who disagrees with your beliefs is 'insane'.
Okay... You DO realize that you are on a philosophy forum?
Despite your fallacious and emotional reaction, if you'd like to discuss the fallacy of your 'belief' in the impossibility of transcendental Truth, without the emotion, I'd be glad to oblige.
Kant doesn't impress me, so hauling out your tin god means nothing to me. Show me the real cutting edge science, show me YOUR inescapable logic, synthesize your own theory, support it, and I'll listen.
Coming at me with "everyone thinks so" is a sure sign that what you offer is a fallacy and just plain wrong.
After all, we are inside looking out, and thus can only formulate provisional overviews based on what is observable. Then again, if we were outside looking in there would be an equivalent discrepancy, lacking in the internal perspective.

Inside/outside are meaningless and more false distinctions.
What is the boundary of 'inside', the inside of your eyelids?
Aside from your misrepresentations of my positions and your own considerably emotional rhetorical outbursts, do you have an opinion on the fact is you are on the inside of some systems, just as your cells are inside of you?

This is simply indisputable. Each individual will tend to be part of a family, a subculture, a culture, and are necessarily part of humanity, Mammalia, Chordata, biota, the Earth, the solar system, the Milky Way, the Local group of galaxies and Laniakea. I would like to see you deny this.

Of course, I expect you would - as a good eastern acolyte - claim identification with all of these things, and thus identification beyond them with the entire universe, The All, God. Yep, sure. I thought of that option about forty years ago.

However, these functional connections are not reflected in the senses; so individuals don't notice any of reality aside from what happens within their sensory circle.
Namelesss wrote:
So researchers and theorists simply do the best they can in understanding the nature of reality, and their best is far better and more rigorous than most people can manage, which is why are in that profession.
Your hero worship
No, you misjudge - yet again!! You mistake respect for others' skills, humility and teamwork as "hero worship".


I see on forums at times people who don't seem to interact much in real life, and they seem to assume that others are like unthinking automatons, whose words encompass the entirety of their conceptions, as if their entire minds could be downloaded into a small memory stick. If you appreciate that there is an entire iceberg of awareness lying beneath the tip revealed in people's posts then relativities will make more sense.
Namelesss
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Namelesss »

Greta wrote: February 9th, 2018, 12:11 am
Namelesss wrote: February 8th, 2018, 9:50 pm
Not so.
Pain is just one more feeling to perceive, like joy or sad (sad can be quite painful), and they all pass.
Pain is no different than anything else in existence, it is perceived of 'Mind'.
It is easy to reduce everything into an abstraction when safely tapping on a keyboard. "Oh pain is no different to x" says he - until he experiences it for real. Pain does not necessarily pass, failing death.
Please do not make such assumptions about what you think my experience is.
Your dismissal is juvenile, and my point remains.
If a metaphysical discussion is too far from the superficialities that absorb you, why are you here.
I offer you an all inclusive simple theory, so far irrefutable, covering all aspects of anything that you can offer, and you just don't like it.
Then intellectually, philosophically, scientifically, experientially... refute what I offer.
Whether or not you 'like it' is completely irrelevant in this context (philosophy/science).
If not for all those ancients being wrong you would not be in a position to posture about how pain means nothing - you would not even exist. Not bad for wrong people. Why do you think their so-called "wrongness" was so effective as regards survival?
Are you limiting your 'argument' to survival alone?
How about the quality of such 'survival'?
Do you know nothing of human history?
All those great ideas have gotten us where we are today.
Pretty proud of humanity at the present?
One would thing that after 300,000 years and more, all your gods would have given us Utopia by now, no?
Seems that your heroes have never risen us from Hell!
I'm unimpressed with your 'gods'.
And as you have not refuted anything that I offered (nor offered anything 'new'), until you do...
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Sy Borg
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Sy Borg »

Nameless, sometimes simple problems have simple answers. Proving existence is easy, understanding the nature of that existence is hard.
Namelesss wrote: February 9th, 2018, 1:42 amPretty proud of humanity at the present?
I wouldn't say "proud". I would say I am greatly impressed with humanity and what it's achieved in just a blink in evolutionary time ago. Humans appear to be operating within the Earth's systems, acting as agents of change and distributors of the Earth's material to other worlds.
Namelesss
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

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Greta wrote: February 9th, 2018, 2:25 am Nameless, sometimes simple problems have simple answers. Proving existence is easy, understanding the nature of that existence is hard.
I already spoke on this 'proof' that is emotionally based rather than intellectually/scientifically.
It is akin to hearing you mention that you have an itch, and me demanding 'proof'.
If that itch is your experience/Knowledge, there would be no emotional need to 'prove' it when some fool demands proof! You'd, if healthy, jest smile and move on. You have no need to validate your Knowledge, IF it is your experience.
No, it is not 'easy' to 'prove', nor is it scientific or philosophical. But it appears that you have ignored all that and merely continue on your way.
Please, don't waste my time requesting 'proof' of my itch.
Namelesss wrote: February 9th, 2018, 1:42 amPretty proud of humanity at the present?
I wouldn't say "proud". I would say I am greatly impressed with humanity and what it's achieved in just a blink in evolutionary time ago. Humans appear to be operating within the Earth's systems, acting as agents of change and distributors of the Earth's material to other worlds.
There's certainly no way that I can (or would) argue with your feelings and impressions.
I have witnessed people evolving from mewling infants to Enlightened/unconditionally Loving transcendent beings in a few short years, don't make excuses for humanity to me based on 'geological time', it doesn't wash, not for me, at least.
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Sy Borg
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Sy Borg »

Namelesss wrote: February 9th, 2018, 4:18 am
Greta wrote: February 9th, 2018, 2:25 am Nameless, sometimes simple problems have simple answers. Proving existence is easy, understanding the nature of that existence is hard.
I already spoke on this 'proof' that is emotionally based rather than intellectually/scientifically.
It is akin to hearing you mention that you have an itch, and me demanding 'proof'.
If that itch is your experience/Knowledge, there would be no emotional need to 'prove' it when some fool demands proof! You'd, if healthy, jest smile and move on. You have no need to validate your Knowledge, IF it is your experience.
No, it is not 'easy' to 'prove', nor is it scientific or philosophical. But it appears that you have ignored all that and merely continue on your way.
Please, don't waste my time requesting 'proof' of my itch.
It is blindingly simple. Be hit by a heavy object and see how convincing any denial of reality is. At that point you are 100% unable to deny it in any way, shape or form. At that point your existence becomes all-encompassing, as opposed to illusory.
Namelesss wrote:
I wouldn't say "proud". I would say I am greatly impressed with humanity and what it's achieved in just a blink in evolutionary time ago. Humans appear to be operating within the Earth's systems, acting as agents of change and distributors of the Earth's material to other worlds.
There's certainly no way that I can (or would) argue with your feelings and impressions.
I have witnessed people evolving from mewling infants to Enlightened/unconditionally Loving transcendent beings in a few short years, don't make excuses for humanity to me based on 'geological time', it doesn't wash, not for me, at least.
It's unreasonable to expect entire societies to operate with the speed and flexibility of individuals, akin to judging the Titanic for failing to do a U-turn on the spot as it approached the iceberg, like judging a two year-old for not understanding Hawking's A Brief History of Time.

Are you a practising Buddhist or just an enthusiast? In my 20s I was the latter, quite immersed in Buddhist writings and thought. Much of it has stuck but I have rejected aspects such as "enlightenment", which I see as largely a means for people of low material attainment to feel less ordinary. Rather than chasing the phantasm of enlightenment, today I see more value in admitting one's ordinariness but appreciating humanity's and nature's extraordinariness that are within us all to some extent.
Namelesss
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Namelesss »

Greta wrote: February 9th, 2018, 4:55 pm...but I have rejected aspects such as "enlightenment"
Of course you have!
Unconditional Love/Enlightenment is not something that you can imbibe from thinking about it, or some book, some scripture, some overnight half-hearted juvenile practice!
Experience = Knowledge, and you have none!
It stands to reason that you have quit your practice (if there was any at all) when you didn't receive immediate results/experience/Knowledge. Whatever.
Perhaps someday you will Know, perhaps never.
Until you Know, it also stands to reason that you have nothing to say about it of any value.
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Present awareness
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Present awareness »

It seems to me that the conversation has drifted off topic lately, for the question at hand is “do I exist and if so, how can I prove it”?
As “Nameless” mention earlier, why is proof even necessary? The only experience we have access to, is our own, so wherever we go, there we are. Words and ideas are like a finger, pointing at the moon, if you look at the finger, you’ll miss the moon.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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SimpleGuy
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by SimpleGuy »

Present awareness wrote: February 7th, 2018, 12:13 am The statement, “I think, therefore I am” is supposed to be proof of our existence. The reasoning goes that there is an awareness of thinking, so something MUST exist to produce that thinking. However, whom is this “I” in the statement “I think”? As humans, we have the ability to form abstract ideas about whom we are, base on memory of past events and experiences. Those past memories and experiences no longer exist in the present moment, so this sense of “I” has no real foundation outside of memory. It would perhaps be more accurate to say “I am, therefore I think I am”.
The problem is : Is this I an isolated entity or an interconnected social defined i, correlated to the ontological beeing in existence in time. If this i then is defined via social correlations, how far has this i then an interconnection between the common epistemic memory of society and the more existentialistically defined materialistic i? This is the question per se. :D
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Present awareness
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

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SimpleGuy wrote: February 10th, 2018, 7:19 am
Present awareness wrote: February 7th, 2018, 12:13 am The statement, “I think, therefore I am” is supposed to be proof of our existence. The reasoning goes that there is an awareness of thinking, so something MUST exist to produce that thinking. However, whom is this “I” in the statement “I think”? As humans, we have the ability to form abstract ideas about whom we are, base on memory of past events and experiences. Those past memories and experiences no longer exist in the present moment, so this sense of “I” has no real foundation outside of memory. It would perhaps be more accurate to say “I am, therefore I think I am”.
The problem is : Is this I an isolated entity or an interconnected social defined i, correlated to the ontological beeing in existence in time. If this i then is defined via social correlations, how far has this i then an interconnection between the common epistemic memory of society and the more existentialistically defined materialistic i? This is the question per se. :D

Philosophers throughout the ages have grappled with the hard problem of consciousness, with many opinions and theories offered, but so far, no solution to the problem that most may agree on. Some have suggested that there is a “collective consciousness” which each individual “I” is a part of. I tend to favour the inter connectedness of all things, including this notion of “I”, and that no separate individual “I” exists. This individual “I” is like a bubble, easy to pop by the simple act of dying.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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Vivek7
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Vivek7 »

My proof that I exist is evident from my perceptions through my sensations. I feel when you love me or hate me. I feel when you tell me something that relates to me and these sensory perceptions give me buckets of evidences. That the world is full of things that I can see, feel, touch, like or dislike, taste and meditate over and all these things together give me tens of thousands of proofs that I coexist with the rest of beings. I do not have to prove myself with other heaps of abstract ideas like the rest of philosophers do with their high-sounding ideas. The simple truth I have is I feel my existence and the rest that coexist with me. What more evidences should I put forth?
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Sy Borg
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Sy Borg »

Namelesss wrote: February 9th, 2018, 10:57 pm
Greta wrote: February 9th, 2018, 4:55 pm...but I have rejected aspects such as "enlightenment"
Of course you have!
Unconditional Love/Enlightenment is not something that you can imbibe from thinking about it, or some book, some scripture, some overnight half-hearted juvenile practice!
Experience = Knowledge, and you have none!
It stands to reason that you have quit your practice (if there was any at all) when you didn't receive immediate results/experience/Knowledge. Whatever.
Perhaps someday you will Know, perhaps never.
Until you Know, it also stands to reason that you have nothing to say about it of any value.
I hope you enjoy your path. It's a shame that you cannot respect those of others but that may come with maturity in the future.

For the record, my rejection of "enlightenment" was not due to lack of results but my distaste at the egotistical way so-called enlightenment was being used by poseurs as a "badge of honour" along with the immature, blinkered, aggressive and agitated nature of those claiming to be "enlightened".

PA, it's a good question - why should we even bother proving it? Whether one believes existence is self evident or illusory would seem moot when a Mack truck is hurtling in one's direction.
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Present awareness
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

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There is no such thing as an “enlightened” person, there is only an enlightened moment. As Greta has observed, those claiming to be “enlightened” are usually suffering from illusions of grandeur or sometimes just plain mental illness. When the so called enlightened person is asleep, does he/she sleep in an enlightened way? No, I think not. I believe it is possible for a person to have a flash of insight, which may be defined as enlightenment, but as the Buddha himself observed, everything is impermanent and soon comes to pass.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Namelesss »

Greta wrote: February 10th, 2018, 5:05 pm
Namelesss wrote: February 9th, 2018, 10:57 pm
Of course you have!
Unconditional Love/Enlightenment is not something that you can imbibe from thinking about it, or some book, some scripture, some overnight half-hearted juvenile practice!
Experience = Knowledge, and you have none!
It stands to reason that you have quit your practice (if there was any at all) when you didn't receive immediate results/experience/Knowledge. Whatever.
Perhaps someday you will Know, perhaps never.
Until you Know, it also stands to reason that you have nothing to say about it of any value.
I hope you enjoy your path. It's a shame that you cannot respect those of others but that may come with maturity in the future.
No disrespect intended.
Respect is meaningless in Love.
Although a blow to the ego, hearing that one does not necessarily Know what one thinks one does, all Blessings are painful.
I am often humbled into silence and a tear, how wonderful that pain.
Genius/artist/scientist/Philosophers are few. Fewer and fewer every century. Why?
Thought/ego is dying.
I imagined myself a blacksmith until I met Samuel Yellin and saw his mastery. Another supremely humbling and sweetly painful moment.
So, when I toss that quote about 'philosophologists', it's just words on the monitor. Whether or not they have any meaning to you is for you.
Everything can be seen as metaphor.
For the record, my rejection of "enlightenment" was not due to lack of results but my distaste at the egotistical way so-called enlightenment was being used by poseurs as a "badge of honour" along with the immature, blinkered, aggressive and agitated nature of those claiming to be "enlightened".
I won't disagree, but no matter the path, as you say, there are 'predators' and frauds to be found.
Depends on which way you are pointed, I guess.
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middletoe
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by middletoe »

New here, hi all.

Just wondering how you would define “I”.

See no problem with your logic btw.
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