How do I prove my existence?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Gertie »

Tam
Or if you're suggesting the experiential ingredients of individual self-ness exist independently of the recipe which creates each individual, why call the different recipes the same self, the same 'I'? Surely the term Subject/Self/I is there to differentiate between the individual who experiences a first-person pov, from those other individuals I can only experience as third-person Objects 'out there'. You seem to be using terms in an idiosyncratic way, so I think you need to define them.
As I have said, I think 'I' denotes both an empirical subject and the transcendental subject, and we usually confuse those two. Have you read this:
http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... =2&t=15258
Thanks for the link.

You end up pretty much agreeing that you 'feel' you're right, and that's the foundaation your internally consistent hypothesis ultimately rests on.

Which is the problem I pointed out. So I can come up with a contradictory hypothesis which feels right to me, as can a million other people, and there is no neutral testing ground, because the empirical world of objective/shared knowledge is enclosed within each contradictory hypothesis.

So you could be right, or one of a million other contradictory hypotheses could be right, or all could be wrong, we have no way of knowing. So why not say ''I don't know', but I like this idea or that one?



Meanwhile in the empirical world of (imperfect and limited) shared/agreed knowledge, we have science beginning to explain why particular types of hypotheses/world views might be more appealing to us, beginning to explain why you might find this particular world view appealing, which imo should give pause for thought.



Tho as you say, science can't (yet anyway) explain subjective experiential states themselves, in fact it looks like they might not be compatible with our scientific method (the hard problem). Hence philosophy of mind flourishes, with myriad contradictory hypotheses, so far all bumping into the same problem of testability. And imo the best response to that situation is -

'I don't know, nobody does, and nobody even knows how they can know if any particular hypothesis is the right one'.
Can you spell that out more clearly? I'm imagining a sea of experiential states (seeing a red apple, feeling sad, an itchy toe, etc) existing independently, somehow becoming embodied in an individual material state in a sequential manner which forms the history of a self's existence, then when that individual's brain dies, becoming re-embodied in a different combination as another individual. Is that what you mean?
Exactly. If you read the above post, it will perhaps become more clear, with some kind of proof included.
So you're claiming that for every person who has ever had a uniquely particular experience of having an itchy toe, plus every person who ever will, there are billions of identical, discrete previously/independently existing experiential states of itchy toes continually happening over and over? Along with every other experiential event any conscious entity ever had or ever will? And your collective noun for these discrete experiential events is the 'transcendental subject'?

And then these discrete independent experiential events are somehow sequentially appropriately slotted in to each of these people's lives, from birth, and stop at physical death and return to 'the experiential either' as discrete itchy toe,etc experiences?

How does this work?

What specific evidence/argument leads to this conclusion? Or If I've misinterpreted you, can you specifically say how, rather than rely on abstract terminology?
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Tamminen »

Gertie wrote: January 31st, 2018, 9:07 am 'I don't know, nobody does, and nobody even knows how they can know if any particular hypothesis is the right one'.
You are right in the sense that I cannot prove my position better than what I tried to do in the post you read. I suppose it did not convince you. I can only say: think about it. It is more a matter of insight than a matter of proving or knowing in the strict scientific sense of the word. But what I am certain about is that it is not a position that can be changed to any other position with an equal right of truth. And think about the syllogism in the post, there is something in it that is worth considering.
So you're claiming that for every person who has ever had a uniquely particular experience of having an itchy toe, plus every person who ever will, there are billions of identical, discrete previously/independently existing experiential states of itchy toes continually happening over and over? Along with every other experiential event any conscious entity ever had or ever will? And your collective noun for these discrete experiential events is the 'transcendental subject'?

And then these discrete independent experiential events are somehow sequentially appropriately slotted in to each of these people's lives, from birth, and stop at physical death and return to 'the experiential either' as discrete itchy toe,etc experiences?

How does this work?

What specific evidence/argument leads to this conclusion? Or If I've misinterpreted you, can you specifically say how, rather than rely on abstract terminology?
The idea of my version of the transcendental subject is that the present moment which I am experiencing just now and which is constantly changing to another experience has had a long history of experiental events and will have an endless future of them. And we are all part of that history. So there is no repetition of the same events. I must admit that this may seem paradoxical and surely leads to many oddities, and in the end is something that is impossible to express with language. In fact if you want to understand what I mean, you should put language into "brackets" and only think about your own existence: where you came from, where you will go after your death and so on. You should forget the world around you. Then it is perhaps possible, in favourable circumstances, to get some deep insights that changes your way of seeing the world. But it is beyond language, beyond all this what I am trying to explain. Like Wittgenstein's ladder this text is only a way of trying to lead to a new way of seeing the world and especially our existence in relation to the world and at the same time as part of the world.
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Tamminen »

And why is this all beyond language? Because when we write to each other, we are supposed to be two separate subjects, and we cannot get rid of that situation. That we are both part of the same stream of existence cannot be expressed in our writing to each other, in spite of my doing so now. Paradoxical?
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Tamminen »

Gertie wrote: January 31st, 2018, 9:07 am You end up pretty much agreeing that you 'feel' you're right
Did I say so?

Einstein said that when he understood what gravitation really is, it was the happiest moment of his life. He was happy because his idea was true and he knew it. Some ideas just are so clear that we immediately know they are true, and that causes happy feelings. False ideas seldom have the illusion of truth in them, and therefore seldom cause happy feelings among scientists and philosophers.

So let's not underestimate philosophers' feelings.
Jklint
Posts: 1719
Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Jklint »

...by bumping into something which also has existence.
User avatar
SimpleGuy
Posts: 338
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by SimpleGuy »

Perhaps one should formulate the question a little bit different. Is there some kind of mathematical , statistical evidence that i do exist for everybody that i know and how should this test look like. This would correspond to the statistical setting that you talked about. The problem is not to describe the statistical operator in quantum mechanics. It's to build up correct tests for statistics to prove it. Most of those look just at the variances but if one observes the linear interpolation of some statistical points for every coordinate there is still a different confidence interval, such that the linear approximation is a good estimator. This is dependent on the point, but most of the times in experimental physics omitted.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Sy Borg »

Jklint wrote: February 2nd, 2018, 7:30 pm ...by bumping into something which also has existence.
My thought too. Logically, physical existence is proved via physical means rather than concepts or math.
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Present awareness »

The statement, “I think, therefore I am” is supposed to be proof of our existence. The reasoning goes that there is an awareness of thinking, so something MUST exist to produce that thinking. However, whom is this “I” in the statement “I think”? As humans, we have the ability to form abstract ideas about whom we are, base on memory of past events and experiences. Those past memories and experiences no longer exist in the present moment, so this sense of “I” has no real foundation outside of memory. It would perhaps be more accurate to say “I am, therefore I think I am”.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Namelesss »

Greta wrote: February 4th, 2018, 7:38 pm
Jklint wrote: February 2nd, 2018, 7:30 pm ...by bumping into something which also has existence.
My thought too. Logically, physical existence is proved via physical means rather than concepts or math.
Science tells us that the ultimate composition of any and everything that is perceived, is "information waves", Mind!
Like the monitor before you displays words and pictures, that is merely the perception of the various codes to be perceived, at the moment.
Kicking a rock to 'prove' it's physical ultimate reality is like saying; I perceive the code for pressure on my toe. I perceive the code for an image. I perceive the code for toe-pain. I perceive the code (all simultaneously) for that 'rock', for it's color, for it's hardness, for it's smell, etc... etc...
The monitor is no accurate representation of the coding within the computer. There are no rocks in there, just information waves ('quantum probability wave field'/Mind).
It is as naive to assume that kicking a rock 'proves' anything, any more than walking away from it 'proves' motion (logically impossible).
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Present awareness »

Namelesss wrote: February 7th, 2018, 1:34 am
Greta wrote: February 4th, 2018, 7:38 pm
My thought too. Logically, physical existence is proved via physical means rather than concepts or math.
Science tells us that the ultimate composition of any and everything that is perceived, is "information waves", Mind!
Like the monitor before you displays words and pictures, that is merely the perception of the various codes to be perceived, at the moment.
Kicking a rock to 'prove' it's physical ultimate reality is like saying; I perceive the code for pressure on my toe. I perceive the code for an image. I perceive the code for toe-pain. I perceive the code (all simultaneously) for that 'rock', for it's color, for it's hardness, for it's smell, etc... etc...
The monitor is no accurate representation of the coding within the computer. There are no rocks in there, just information waves ('quantum probability wave field'/Mind).
It is as naive to assume that kicking a rock 'proves' anything, any more than walking away from it 'proves' motion (logically impossible).
If information waves are perceived and decoded by mind, does this prove that mind exists?
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Namelesss »

Present awareness wrote: February 7th, 2018, 9:19 amIf information waves are perceived and decoded by mind, does this prove that mind exists?
Mind IS the information!
I have a huge problem with the notion of 'proof', at least from a scientific/philosophical Perspective.
Neither science nor philosophy 'proves' anything! It is all tentative theories.
What I perceive people to be meaning when demanding 'proof', is as follows;
"Proof" - that which harmonizes with a majority of our biases and preconceived notions, and we are willing to accept, individually, egoically, emotionally!
That is not science.
Or philosophy.

Everything exists! That which is perceived, exists.
Not anything exists as we perceive it.
All such dualities are mere appearances, so they can be reflected into Consciousness/Mind.
We are all unique Perspectives experiencing/Knowing the 'information' before us. Ego/we are the monitor by which the Universe/Reality/God... can Know Self.
Attempting to prove that anything is anything is a fool's errand and a huge waste of time.
Just be the fly on the wall and observe the unchanging, all inclusive Reality/Truth, a unique bit of which, we perceive each moment.
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Present awareness »

Namelesss wrote: February 7th, 2018, 10:25 pm
Present awareness wrote: February 7th, 2018, 9:19 amIf information waves are perceived and decoded by mind, does this prove that mind exists?
Mind IS the information!
I have a huge problem with the notion of 'proof', at least from a scientific/philosophical Perspective.
Neither science nor philosophy 'proves' anything! It is all tentative theories.
What I perceive people to be meaning when demanding 'proof', is as follows;
"Proof" - that which harmonizes with a majority of our biases and preconceived notions, and we are willing to accept, individually, egoically, emotionally!
That is not science.
Or philosophy.

Everything exists! That which is perceived, exists.
Not anything exists as we perceive it.
All such dualities are mere appearances, so they can be reflected into Consciousness/Mind.
We are all unique Perspectives experiencing/Knowing the 'information' before us. Ego/we are the monitor by which the Universe/Reality/God... can Know Self.
Attempting to prove that anything is anything is a fool's errand and a huge waste of time.
Just be the fly on the wall and observe the unchanging, all inclusive Reality/Truth, a unique bit of which, we perceive each moment.
Well said Nameless!
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Sy Borg »

Namelesss wrote: February 7th, 2018, 1:34 am
Greta wrote: February 4th, 2018, 7:38 pmMy thought too. Logically, physical existence is proved via physical means rather than concepts or math.
It is as naive to assume that kicking a rock 'proves' anything, any more than walking away from it 'proves' motion (logically impossible).
Everything can be denied aside from physical pain.

While science is a work in progress, it would be deliberately blinkered to deny that researchers have come closer to the truth. These researchers are not fools, not naive, often brilliant, sometimes geniuses. Our ancestors' hard work has brought humanity tremendous advancement in all areas and I personally feel tremendous gratitude towards them for their brilliance, dedication and effort that not only made my life possible, but brought us closer to truth.

Absolute truth, as Kant and probably every other sane person on the forum (or any forum) would recognise, is not possible. After all, we are inside looking out, and thus can only formulate provisional overviews based on what is observable. Then again, if we were outside looking in there would be an equivalent discrepancy, lacking in the internal perspective.

So researchers and theorists simply do the best they can in understanding the nature of reality, and their best is far better and more rigorous than most people can manage, which is why are in that profession.
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Present awareness »

Greta wrote: February 8th, 2018, 3:08 am
Namelesss wrote: February 7th, 2018, 1:34 am It is as naive to assume that kicking a rock 'proves' anything, any more than walking away from it 'proves' motion (logically impossible).
Everything can be denied aside from physical pain.

While science is a work in progress, it would be deliberately blinkered to deny that researchers have come closer to the truth. These researchers are not fools, not naive, often brilliant, sometimes geniuses. Our ancestors' hard work has brought humanity tremendous advancement in all areas and I personally feel tremendous gratitude towards them for their brilliance, dedication and effort that not only made my life possible, but brought us closer to truth.

Absolute truth, as Kant and probably every other sane person on the forum (or any forum) would recognise, is not possible. After all, we are inside looking out, and thus can only formulate provisional overviews based on what is observable. Then again, if we were outside looking in there would be an equivalent discrepancy, lacking in the internal perspective.

So researchers and theorists simply do the best they can in understanding the nature of reality, and their best is far better and more rigorous than most people can manage, which is why are in that profession.
Also well said Greta! I feel that both you and Nameless have a good insight into the truth of this matter. I’ve been enjoying your comments!
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Namelesss »

Present awareness wrote: February 7th, 2018, 10:48 pm Well said Nameless!
Glad you found meaning.
Positive feedback is rare, thank yo!. *__-
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021