How do I prove my existence?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Maxcady10001
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Hereandnow wrote:Purity is not a difficult notion when considered like this.
I don't know, as I googled hallucinations after a stroke, and found this. It certainly seems as though her experience was dependent on the stroke. I do not plan on having a stroke any time soon. Unless you count living in the moment as purity, is that what you meant?

Charles Bonnet syndrome – Visual
hallucinations are quite common after a
sudden loss of vision, which can happen
after stroke. This is called Charles Bonnet
syndrome. These types of hallucinations are
usually temporary.
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Frost
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Frost »

Maxcady10001 wrote: January 28th, 2018, 10:49 pm So no problems?
Hmm, not sure. I'm beginning to wonder if that can really be called an "event."

I tend to think of events requiring some sort of causation, and I see causation as an emergent real pattern of a spatiotemporal maximum of information transfer. That isn't happening with "the choice on the part of nature," yet it is also what makes any information possible, let alone information transfer. It is, on the other hand, broadly speaking, something that "makes things happen," since without that actualization, nothing would ever happen. However, I am still uncomfortable with confidently calling it an event because it is not itself any kind of information transfer...yet it actualizes or creates the information! Experience itself is non-physical, yet it is what results in anything happening....

I may need to sleep on this one :)
Maxcady10001
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Even if you cannot find a cause, wouldn't its emergence be called an event?
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Frost
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Frost »

Maxcady10001 wrote: January 28th, 2018, 11:28 pm Even if you cannot find a cause, wouldn't its emergence be called an event?
I feel you on that...I am inclined to think so but I'm not confident. I have to stop thinking about it to try to find an answer.
Tamminen
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Tamminen »

Gertie wrote: January 28th, 2018, 9:58 pm Is the existence of the Thinker self-evident, or only the existence of the Experiencing of thinking something?
I think there is no "thinker" or subject which is a "thing" or substance. The identity of an individual subject is an interesting question, and I think it is connected with memory. But I also think that there must be a point-like transcendental subject with no properties, a universal self that connects all individual subjects to a common stream of being. It is much like the metaphysical I of Wittgenstein's Tractatus, although I have made more far-reaching metaphysical conclusions.
For example, I think the problem with starting from premises based in 'mental' experience as fundamental and everything else is inference, then making your inferences based on self-reflection, examining the nature of that experience, is that anything is then possible, and bias can roam free. You can cherry pick what seems meaningful or feels right to you and build edifices of internally consistent hypotheses around that, but then I can choose a contradictory hypothesis and do the same thing. How do we then judge one against the other?

To get into the realm of 'objective'/shared reality, somewhere to test our contradictory hypotheses against each other, we have to agree there is an external world we both co-habit, and can (roughly/imperfectly) agree we know things about. And then, imo, we're in the empirical realm of neuroscience and evolution, and obliged to follow the evidence, rather than cherry pick based on what feels special or meaningful to us, or pick'n'mix. And where there are still mysteries, accept we don't know.
I think philosophy must start with immanence, not transcendence. Nature is transcendent, and what nature is, philosophically, can only be found out by a phenomenological analysis of our being in the world. This analysis reveals much more than the empirical world that science is interested in. Science cannot deal with our subjectivity, it is not within its realm of study. That is why we need philosophy.

I will perhaps continue this later.
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Sy Borg
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Sy Borg »

Generally a good biff over the head is enough to convince people that you are real. We are, at least initially, physical beings so the proofs are necessarily physical rather than abstract.
Tamminen
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Tamminen »

Gertie wrote: January 28th, 2018, 9:58 pm What properties are you talking about here? A different embodied being in the same external world with an identical sense of self, identical thoughts, feelings, body, memory/history, etc? How would that work?
Not identical. All the various individual experiences we have. I am speaking of the transcendental subject here, and my view is that it manifests itself as all the individual subjects, only changing its point of view.
Or if you're suggesting the experiential ingredients of individual self-ness exist independently of the recipe which creates each individual, why call the different recipes the same self, the same 'I'? Surely the term Subject/Self/I is there to differentiate between the individual who experiences a first-person pov, from those other individuals I can only experience as third-person Objects 'out there'. You seem to be using terms in an idiosyncratic way, so I think you need to define them.
As I have said, I think 'I' denotes both an empirical subject and the transcendental subject, and we usually confuse those two. Have you read this:
http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... =2&t=15258
Can you spell that out more clearly? I'm imagining a sea of experiential states (seeing a red apple, feeling sad, an itchy toe, etc) existing independently, somehow becoming embodied in an individual material state in a sequential manner which forms the history of a self's existence, then when that individual's brain dies, becoming re-embodied in a different combination as another individual. Is that what you mean?
Exactly. If you read the above post, it will perhaps become more clear, with some kind of proof included.
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Frost
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Frost »

Tamminen wrote: January 29th, 2018, 5:54 am Science cannot deal with our subjectivity, it is not within its realm of study. That is why we need philosophy.
I am not saying we don't need philosophy, but I would like to point out that ontological subjectivity does not preclude epistemic objectivity.
Tamminen
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Tamminen »

Frost wrote: January 29th, 2018, 11:47 am
Tamminen wrote: January 29th, 2018, 5:54 am Science cannot deal with our subjectivity, it is not within its realm of study. That is why we need philosophy.
I am not saying we don't need philosophy, but I would like to point out that ontological subjectivity does not preclude epistemic objectivity.
Yes, I agree. In fact ontological idealism and epistemic realism go together quite well. If that is what you mean.
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Frost
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Frost »

Tamminen wrote: January 29th, 2018, 12:34 pm Yes, I agree. In fact ontological idealism and epistemic realism go together quite well. If that is what you mean.
I'm not a fan of idealism, but yes, that's true as well.
Namelesss
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Namelesss »

Maxcady10001 wrote: January 27th, 2018, 12:54 pm Whatever exists has properties
Removing the spook from the machine, we can translate that as; properties exist.
Your 'whatever' IS properties.
The universe has properties
Removing another spook, we can again say that the Universe IS properties.
The universe exists
That which exists is perceived, that which is perceived exists.
Everything exists, but not necessarily as perceived.
Nothing is the absence of existence
For existence to be absent is for absence to exist
Absence exists therefore something exists
I like that! Very good! *__-
Everything exists!
To be is not to also know...
Knowledge = experience!
Every moment of Universal existence is a unique moment of experience/Perspective/Knowledge!
There is no moment that is not a unique moment of Knowledge of Self to Consciousness!
That which can perceive is Consciousness; that which Is that it Is, there is nothing (no thing) that does not 'be/exist', thus everything exists. Even all the apparent dualities by which the 'One' can be perceived/decoded.
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Frost
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Frost »

I think nothing ultimately exists. From the subjective point of view, the world exists, but as the Absolute nothing exists.
Tamminen
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Tamminen »

Frost wrote: January 30th, 2018, 1:11 am I think nothing ultimately exists. From the subjective point of view, the world exists, but as the Absolute nothing exists.
Perhaps we are here to find out that nothing exists. The veil of Maya.
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Frost
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Frost »

Tamminen wrote: January 30th, 2018, 4:14 pm Perhaps we are here to find out that nothing exists. The veil of Maya.
I think that there are potential quantum distinctions which arise and this can be experienced, but these potential distinctions never become some real metaphysical object in the Netwonian sense. In other words, the unreal never becomes the real. The real is and can only be the Absolute.
Maxcady10001
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Re: How do I prove my existence?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

I think this one works

If there is an "I"that can perceive an existence, "I"exist

If there is an "I" that can falsely perceive an existence, "I" still perceive

I perceive therefore I exist
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