Are we here?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
StayCurious
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Joined: January 11th, 2018, 6:34 pm

Are we here?

Post by StayCurious »

Many people, under religious, spiritual, existential, or other similar regards consistently refer to a "soul." This is most often defined vaguely as a center of experience, somewhere inside the skin and for the most part experienced as tension between the ears and behind the eyes (though the location differs for many cultures).

Many religions believe our souls use the body as a vehicle and that upon birth our soul is "sent" to our body from some repituior of souls that reside outside of what can be referred to as, "material existence."

Is there any path of reasoning or logic that can be used to establish this or is it a reliance on faith? Is it merely the way our brains have happened to develop that allows the reverberation of thoughts and experience to build on themselves, similar to how a stringed instrument uses an empty space to reverberate sound and create further enhancement of tune? Is "self-aware" simply a term referring to our supposedly unique capability to create fundamentally unnessecary abstractions? Is awareness required for intelligence? Is a creatively shaped flower more intelligent than an insect because the insect uses its own effort whereas the flower uses the wind to get from place to place?

I would love to hear your own opinions, thank you for your time!
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

There are experiential approaches to learning about this: iow follow the practices of the most appealing to you group that believes in souls and see if, over time, you are convinced. Arguments with words are unlikely to convince you, I would guess.
Eduk
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Eduk »

There is no logical reason to believe in a soul.
Not sure why you conflate soul and awareness either? Other than it is unknown how we are self aware therefore magic.
Unknown means unknown.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Eduk wrote: February 23rd, 2018, 2:41 pm There is no logical reason to believe in a soul.
Given a certain set of beliefs and experiences. But if you have other beliefs and experiences there may well be logical reasons. Though I think it would be better to it could be rational. Reasons are not logical or illogical. ARguments can be. Reasons would be single assertions. Logic deals with chains of statements.
Eduk
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Eduk »

Sure Karpel I apologise for being rather inaccurate. But my meaning was probably clear?
For example I believe in a soul because a group I identify with believes in a soul. That is logically sound but not really the point I was trying to make.
Let me try again.
There is no logical reason to believe a soul exists.
Unknown means unknown.
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Philo Sofee
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Philo Sofee »

Eduk wrote: February 24th, 2018, 7:40 am Sure Karpel I apologise for being rather inaccurate. But my meaning was probably clear?
For example I believe in a soul because a group I identify with believes in a soul. That is logically sound but not really the point I was trying to make.
Let me try again.
There is no logical reason to believe a soul exists.
Agreed, but then we are curious, since we are human, and the question to ask is literally forced on us, is logic the only way to go about learning reality, if such a thing there be as such? Logic is limited in what it accomplishes as far as reality goes, at least according to Heidegger in his "Being and Time." I am about a third the way through it, and also reading the commentary of Michael Gelven along with it, which is quite helpful.

So far as I can tell, logic is limited as to what it can accomplish, so why put my cards on it - is what I am saying... but your statement is correct, from a logical stand point there is no reason to believe in a soul. Yet if logic is not the ground, then essentially we shrug our shoulders and say "so what?".
Eduk
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Eduk »

is logic the only way to go about learning reality
Logic is all humans have.
Unknown means unknown.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Eduk wrote: February 24th, 2018, 7:40 am Sure Karpel I apologise for being rather inaccurate. But my meaning was probably clear?
For example I believe in a soul because a group I identify with believes in a soul. That is logically sound but not really the point I was trying to make.
Let me try again.
There is no logical reason to believe a soul exists.
I was being more general than that. If I remember past lives and have memories of places - which turn out to be accurate - of places I, in this life had not been to before, if I meet the ghost of my aunt and find out later she died that day, if I internally and someone else externally experience somethign about a prior life at the same time, if....and there are other categories of experiences, then for me at least it may very well be logical to believe in souls. Since it wouldn't be the bodies, at least as understood by current science, that is continuous. What works as a belief and what is rational to have as a belief depends in part on what we experience. This is true in what is now, but was not then, mundane, regarding phenomena considered not possible by science and not fitting scientific ontology at a particular juncture in time, and then later did fit with new models, often precisely what were considered hallucinations/anthropomorphisms/misinterpretations (etc.) turned out not to be and so new models had to be developed. When science is complete, maybe the story would be different.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Eduk wrote: February 24th, 2018, 7:52 pm
is logic the only way to go about learning reality
Logic is all humans have.
Logic is not all we have. a
(1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning
If that was all we had all we could do was symbolic logic. We would never have content. I know this is being fussy but it is a philosophy forum. Logic is looking at arguments, thought processes, verbal ones, and deciding if they are sound, valid etc. It's just a small part of human intelligence. Now often people use 'logic' to mean reasoning. But here we must be careful since lack of experience, one's models (both consciously known and tacit ones) affect what we experience and affect how we view the statements and logic of others.
Eduk
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Eduk »

Karpel I prefer the definition of logic I get via Google

reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

Also your example of meeting dead aunts and the like is, in a way, a good example. Some people, I imagine, genuinely believe such things have occurred to them and therefore believe themselves quite logical in something like a soul being real. However to do so they would have to ignore all evidence to the contrary, which is well documented and well verified and logical.
Or let me put it another way. They didn't meet their dead aunt or the like. Therefore there remains no logical reason to believe a soul is real.
There are tons of illogical reasons. And tons of people who believe they are logical, but they are mistaken.
Unknown means unknown.
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JamesOfSeattle
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Re: Are we here?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

Here’s my take [Warning: Functionalism ensues]

Karpel is correct in that there is more than one way in which we come to know what is real. Experience is one method. I may see a pot on an unlit stove and decide it should be put away. Grabbing the pot and then dropping it because it is burning hot is a learning experience. Next time I see a pot on an unlit stove and have the desire to put it away, I doubt I will go through the logic of “even though the stove is not lit, someone may have just turned it off and therefore the pot may still be hot”. Instead I think I may have a “gut reaction” that just picking up the pot might be a bad idea.

Now if functionalism is correct (which of course it is, ahem) the thing that you think of as your self can be described as a functional agent. Because the functional agent does not dictate a physical embodiment, from its own subjective perspective, a functional agent by itself is not incompatible with dualism, and so not incompatible with souls, magic, etc. The functional agent may well have experiences which seem incompatible with a materialistic world.

While the functional agent may be open to all kinds of experience, this agent can also follow the rules of logic. These rules are objective relative to the functional agent. As it turns out, these rules tend to be very useful for figuring out “what is real” because they create predictability. Logic becomes most useful when its predictions run counter to our experience. It just so happens that in every case that good logic predicts something counter to our experience, the logical prediction turns out to be correct: the predicted thing happens.

So getting back to the soul, what should the functional agent do if everything that is experienced, even those things which seem incompatible with materialism, such as the experience of ghosts, can be predicted by applying logic to the known physical world?

*
Eduk
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Eduk »

Once again the Google definition of logic comes to our rescue.

experience is a better guide to this than deductive logic

Therefore we see it is logical to use experience where appropriate.
Unknown means unknown.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Sy Borg »

Who knows? Maybe all information that has been, every moment of existence, is saved at the Planck scale like informational seeds or DNA, awaiting activation when the conditions are right?

Maybe the life of previous universes evolved to de Chardin's Omega Point and shaped ours as would a deity?

Maybe the arrow of time is not real but holographic, in which case our ultimate future is already present and gradually dragging us towards it? The math for this concept, worked out by Andrew Strominger, Director of Harvard's Center for the Fundamental Laws of Nature, is apparently elegant and robust.

Maybe there's other timeless dimensions - the domains of quantum entanglement, tunnelling and retrocausality - where spirits can reside?

Or maybe our spirits break down under entropy with our bodies only to be replaced by probabilistic similar, but more complex, entities in the future?

Maybe our size, existential situation and brain structure and operation make it impossible for us to ever understand significant parts of reality?

In short, we don't yet know.
Namelesss
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Post by Namelesss »

StayCurious wrote: February 20th, 2018, 5:54 pm Is there any path of reasoning or logic that can be used to establish this or is it a reliance on faith?
It is a reliance on ignorant guesses of ignorant, belief riddled irrational people (who wrote books, who 'teach' in Sunday school, parents...).
And all the ignorant, belief riddled people who see them as 'knowing', do so because they are spreading/propagating the same strain as their own belief infection.

Faith is a very different thing than 'belief'.
One is an octaplegic head lying on the floor believing that it is an Olympic gold medal skater (as it hovers over the abyss), and the other IS the skater, who Knows!
Faith is Knowledge!!

I am privy to a very good, rational, logical, integrated, Universal 'definition' of a Soul, and, like Heaven and Hell, it's nothing like the childish notions/imaginings of those with no experience/Knowledge.

As to "are we here?", I'd respond, where else could we ever be but Here! Now!? *__-
Eduk
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Re: Are we here?

Post by Eduk »

I rest my case.
Unknown means unknown.
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