Logic limits us

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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ApplicationBot
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Logic limits us

Post by ApplicationBot » February 23rd, 2018, 1:58 pm

Everything we percive as real is created in our minds. We create our reality based on facts, ideas and senses but the ultimate reality for us is what our mind logically creates. If we imagine everything (every object, thought idea, every electron, planet, chair, ...) on a line, only a fraction of that line would be what we consider real and true. The further we go from our real region the more unreal things seem even though they could be more real towards one end and less real towards the second end. Like a colour spectrum, we only see one small part of it.

The thing that allows us to do so is our logic, our world of ideas. Those would be 2+2=4, bachelors are unmarried men, paradox makes no sense,...

My question is whether there are more sets of logic where a paradox for example would be a completly rational conclusion or where 2+2=3;
Of course we see those to be wrong but they could as well be correct in their own set of rules making them true. We defined them to be wrong, not show they are wrong.

Reality in such model would be some object while facts and logic would be a point of view, like a camera angle on that object.
Looking through 1 point of view we only see a 2D "shadow" of the object while looking through more we see the object in it's entirety.
Therefore we are unable to explore reality because we live in a world where we limit ourselves with one distinct set of logical ideas.

Finally, given that everything above is true, we can't dismiss statements based on them being absurd or leading to a paradox. They could be true but we can't see it from our limited point of view.

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Greta
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Greta » February 23rd, 2018, 5:37 pm

Yes, but also note that illogic is even more limiting.

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jerlands
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by jerlands » February 23rd, 2018, 8:37 pm

ApplicationBot wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 1:58 pm
Everything we percive as real is created in our minds. We create our reality based on facts, ideas and senses but the ultimate reality for us is what our mind logically creates.
I don't know that's true, frankly because I'm not quite sure we truly understand what the mind is. According to conventional thought doesn't the mind have different states? The subconscious mind and the conscious mind? The conscious mind seems to bring into focus whatever it is that we direct it towards. So, maybe it's not our mind that's creating our perception but rather it's that which is guiding our mind that has more influence? What is belief and does it exist in the mind or does it exist in the heart? It may be true that the mind manifests our perception but it seems we touch upon things in the heart that our mind tries to explain to us. It also seems to me there's something that lies outside of self that is the true source for our perception. A lie is not reality and it does not create order in our minds but it seems we have to experience chaos to regain order and that might be considered growth.

ApplicationBot wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 1:58 pm
If we imagine everything (every object, thought idea, every electron, planet, chair, ...) on a line, only a fraction of that line would be what we consider real and true. The further we go from our real region the more unreal things seem even though they could be more real towards one end and less real towards the second end. Like a colour spectrum, we only see one small part of it.
I don't like this analogy because it's not possible to perceive everything in a straight line simply because that's not how things exist. If you think of space-time, our position in the universe at this moment compared to another moment, then there is a linear correlation but that only is for one aspect of everything. Focus may be the closest thing our minds have to a straight line.
ApplicationBot wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 1:58 pm
The thing that allows us to do so is our logic, our world of ideas. Those would be 2+2=4, bachelors are unmarried men, paradox makes no sense,...

My question is whether there are more sets of logic where a paradox for example would be a completly rational conclusion or where 2+2=3;
Of course we see those to be wrong but they could as well be correct in their own set of rules making them true. We defined them to be wrong, not show they are wrong.
There seems to be two comprehensive states in the universe, order and chaos. 2+2=3 is degeneration of state and impies it's entering chaos.
ApplicationBot wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 1:58 pm
Reality in such model would be some object while facts and logic would be a point of view, like a camera angle on that object.
Looking through 1 point of view we only see a 2D "shadow" of the object while looking through more we see the object in it's entirety.
Therefore we are unable to explore reality because we live in a world where we limit ourselves with one distinct set of logical ideas.

Finally, given that everything above is true, we can't dismiss statements based on them being absurd or leading to a paradox. They could be true but we can't see it from our limited point of view.
Our focus is what dictates our perception so it seems. What then is the determining factor of focus if not attention and attention might be dictated by our situation.
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

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Newme
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Newme » February 23rd, 2018, 9:42 pm

jerlands wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 8:37 pm
Our focus is what dictates our perception so it seems. What then is the determining factor of focus if not attention and attention might be dictated by our situation.
.
You made some good points- one which I’d have liked to see explored a bit more about one line representing one possibility. However, in any given situation- people will focus on different aspects of the same situation. It seems that consciousness is based on perspective and yet also the one constant variable in reality as we understand it.

There are multiple spiral dynamic theories suggesting as Einstein said, “Logic will get you from A to Z. Imagination will get you anywhere.” A simplified explanation is of faith stages which shows that logic and skepticism are a step but not the final step.
http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html
Logic is helpful when figuring out thoughts, but EQ is needed to succeed socially, intrapersonally & spiritually. Of course both intuition/feeling & logic are both needed in harmony. But when it comes to motivation, and drive to live despite harsh opposition- as my friend says, “functional illusions are priceless.”

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jerlands
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by jerlands » February 23rd, 2018, 10:45 pm

Newme wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 9:42 pm
jerlands wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 8:37 pm
Our focus is what dictates our perception so it seems. What then is the determining factor of focus if not attention and attention might be dictated by our situation.
.
You made some good points- one which I’d have liked to see explored a bit more about one line representing one possibility. However, in any given situation- people will focus on different aspects of the same situation. It seems that consciousness is based on perspective and yet also the one constant variable in reality as we understand it.

There are multiple spiral dynamic theories suggesting as Einstein said, “Logic will get you from A to Z. Imagination will get you anywhere.” A simplified explanation is of faith stages which shows that logic and skepticism are a step but not the final step.
http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html
Logic is helpful when figuring out thoughts, but EQ is needed to succeed socially, intrapersonally & spiritually. Of course both intuition/feeling & logic are both needed in harmony. But when it comes to motivation, and drive to live despite harsh opposition- as my friend says, “functional illusions are priceless.”
Our perception of self as either an autonomous thing or as part of a whole may be the bond in development of Emotional Intelligence (which seems to be what you're referring to.) There's a study called biodynamics that attempts to incorporate the forces of nature and implement that into agriculture, going steps beyond organic. It takes a view that the plant is part of an ecosystem and it's the health of the ecosystem that determines the health of the plant. So why do we want healthy plants? The health of the plant determines the health of that which consumes it and that turns out to be everything we as humans consume. So.. where to begin but with the realization of our situation.
.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Burning ghost » February 24th, 2018, 12:06 am

Here is the most telling mistake:
Therefore we are unable to explore reality because we live in a world where we limit ourselves with one distinct set of logical ideas.
No. We are able to explore BECAUSE we are limited. If we were boundless then ... well, go figure!
AKA badgerjelly

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Philo Sofee » February 24th, 2018, 11:17 am

ApplicationBot
Therefore we are unable to explore reality because we live in a world where we limit ourselves with one distinct set of logical ideas.
Saying we are unable because we deliberately limit ourselves doesn't appear to me to be quite right. Rather it appears to me that the old conundrum of the One and the Many is what limits us, in a certain manner. Since we are, by our nature, limited, the whole cannot be perceived by us in its entirety, therefore, everything we say, think, see, and know is limited simply because of how we find ourselves now in this universe. The Whole both reveals and conceals itself to us at all given times. Plato's cave comes to mind as does St. Paul's idea that we see through a glass darkly... i.e., we are limited, but it's not by choice.

I also wonder if it's actual that we only use one set of logical ideas. It doesn't appear clear to me what you are thinking here. Perhaps a little elaboration could help.

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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Mosesquine » February 24th, 2018, 2:57 pm

Was the writer of OP made by my mind??? I clearly perceive the writer of OP, well.

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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Mosesquine » February 24th, 2018, 3:12 pm

Here's a crucial question: if everything is made or produced by minds, then who made the situation such that Donald Trump is the 45th President of the United States of America???

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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Londoner » February 24th, 2018, 4:16 pm

ApplicationBot wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 1:58 pm
Everything we percive as real is created in our minds.
Then we do not perceive anything, for perception is usually understood as relating to the senses. If everything is created within our minds, then nothing is sensed.
We create our reality based on facts, ideas and senses but the ultimate reality for us is what our mind logically creates.
If our reality was based on 'senses' then it would not all be created in our minds, which you say it is. And what would 'facts' be? If all reality is created in our minds, then why would one version be more 'factual' than any other?

Nor could our mind 'logically' create anything, since logic has to start from some sort of a premise. But if we have no access to anything outside our mind then we would have no reason to think any premise was true, so logic would be of no help.
The thing that allows us to do so is our logic, our world of ideas. Those would be 2+2=4, bachelors are unmarried men, paradox makes no sense,...

My question is whether there are more sets of logic where a paradox for example would be a completly rational conclusion or where 2+2=3;
Of course we see those to be wrong but they could as well be correct in their own set of rules making them true. We defined them to be wrong, not show they are wrong.

Reality in such model would be some object while facts and logic would be a point of view, like a camera angle on that object.
Looking through 1 point of view we only see a 2D "shadow" of the object while looking through more we see the object in it's entirety.
Therefore we are unable to explore reality because we live in a world where we limit ourselves with one distinct set of logical ideas.
They would neither be right or wrong. They might be valid, meaning that we had applied the rules of whatever system we had adopted, but that would not give us a 'fact', it would not tell us anything about any 'reality'.

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jerlands
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by jerlands » February 24th, 2018, 5:42 pm

Londoner wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 4:16 pm
ApplicationBot wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 1:58 pm
Everything we percive as real is created in our minds.
Then we do not perceive anything, for perception is usually understood as relating to the senses. If everything is created within our minds, then nothing is sensed.
Does the mind have any connection with the senses? What you're saying implies it doesn't.

Londoner wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 4:16 pm
We create our reality based on facts, ideas and senses but the ultimate reality for us is what our mind logically creates.
If our reality was based on 'senses' then it would not all be created in our minds, which you say it is. And what would 'facts' be? If all reality is created in our minds, then why would one version be more 'factual' than any other?

Nor could our mind 'logically' create anything, since logic has to start from some sort of a premise. But if we have no access to anything outside our mind then we would have no reason to think any premise was true, so logic would be of no help.
Again, it seems you're separating the mind from the senses? There is no physical state, either in meditation or an isolation chamber, that will separate us from our senses. Sense is simply duality, it's this compared with that. If we breath we are experiencing duality.

Londoner wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 4:16 pm
The thing that allows us to do so is our logic, our world of ideas. Those would be 2+2=4, bachelors are unmarried men, paradox makes no sense,...

My question is whether there are more sets of logic where a paradox for example would be a completly rational conclusion or where 2+2=3;
Of course we see those to be wrong but they could as well be correct in their own set of rules making them true. We defined them to be wrong, not show they are wrong.

Reality in such model would be some object while facts and logic would be a point of view, like a camera angle on that object.
Looking through 1 point of view we only see a 2D "shadow" of the object while looking through more we see the object in it's entirety.
Therefore we are unable to explore reality because we live in a world where we limit ourselves with one distinct set of logical ideas.
They would neither be right or wrong. They might be valid, meaning that we had applied the rules of whatever system we had adopted, but that would not give us a 'fact', it would not tell us anything about any 'reality'.
The notion of right and wrong.. Doesn't right imply 'moving in a straight line' and wrong 'crooked?' Logic is a straight line where we can get from point a to point b without deviation. The problem with logic defining a state is that things don't exist in logical sense but coexist in dimension with everything else. It's like logically expressing fire so that it's comprehensible without experience.
.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Greta » February 24th, 2018, 5:54 pm

jerlands wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 5:42 pm
Sense is simply duality, it's this compared with that. If we breathe we are experiencing duality.
Using logic - which is limited, but potent - I see breathing as an indication of our unity with the Earth. We are rooted to the atmosphere by the respiratory system just as plants are rooted to the Earth. The duality appears in our apparent - and temporary - separateness from the planet, made clear to us by the relative exclusivity of our senses and opacity of our minds.

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Re: Logic limits us

Post by jerlands » February 24th, 2018, 6:09 pm

Greta wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 5:54 pm
jerlands wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 5:42 pm
Sense is simply duality, it's this compared with that. If we breathe we are experiencing duality.
Using logic - which is limited, but potent - I see breathing as an indication of our unity with the Earth. We are rooted to the atmosphere by the respiratory system just as plants are rooted to the Earth. The duality appears in our apparent - and temporary - separateness from the planet, made clear to us by the relative exclusivity of our senses and opacity of our minds.
Duality is simply echoing the principle creative force of expansion and contraction and this exists in every form of matter including energy which is expressed as an oscillation between hi and lo. We have no escape from duality except possibly in some form of true unity which I envision as reality.
.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

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Greta
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Greta » February 24th, 2018, 6:35 pm

jerlands wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 6:09 pm
Greta wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 5:54 pm

Using logic - which is limited, but potent - I see breathing as an indication of our unity with the Earth. We are rooted to the atmosphere by the respiratory system just as plants are rooted to the Earth. The duality appears in our apparent - and temporary - separateness from the planet, made clear to us by the relative exclusivity of our senses and opacity of our minds.
Duality is simply echoing the principle creative force of expansion and contraction and this exists in every form of matter including energy which is expressed as an oscillation between hi and lo. We have no escape from duality except possibly in some form of true unity which I envision as reality.
Where is the problem with duality? Why escape it? It's life.

Yes, life can be hard and it rarely involves the brain-bending bliss of peak experiences, which are said to be moments of unity. I've been there and it was incredible and life changing, but much too intense a state to be sustainable. The simple, inglorious slow burn of life is not so bad IMO.

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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Londoner » February 25th, 2018, 6:03 am

jerlands wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 5:42 pm

Does the mind have any connection with the senses? What you're saying implies it doesn't..

Again, it seems you're separating the mind from the senses? There is no physical state, either in meditation or an isolation chamber, that will separate us from our senses. Sense is simply duality, it's this compared with that. If we breath we are experiencing duality.
Not me.

The OP says: Everything we percive as real is created in our minds. If that was the case, then we do not have senses. We might think we sense external things but if Everything we percive as real is created in our minds we don't.

So my point is that when the OP goes on to speak of what is 'real' or 'true' these words are meaningless, because if 'everything' is created in our minds then there is no external standard to which we can compare particular thoughts.

We are left stuck in solipsism with no possibility of escape.
Me: They would neither be right or wrong. They might be valid, meaning that we had applied the rules of whatever system we had adopted, but that would not give us a 'fact', it would not tell us anything about any 'reality'.

The notion of right and wrong.. Doesn't right imply 'moving in a straight line' and wrong 'crooked?' Logic is a straight line where we can get from point a to point b without deviation. The problem with logic defining a state is that things don't exist in logical sense but coexist in dimension with everything else. It's like logically expressing fire so that it's comprehensible without experience
.

Right or wrong as described in the OP

My question is whether there are more sets of logic where a paradox for example would be a completly rational conclusion or where 2+2=3;
Of course we see those to be wrong but they could as well be correct in their own set of rules making them true. We defined them to be wrong, not show they are wrong.


Logic does not move us in a straight line, if that implies we end up somewhere different from where we started. Rather, it prevents us from wandering. It does not allow us to make unstated assumptions.

Like the examples in the OP, it is tautological. It only allows you to put what you started with in a different way. It doesn't tell you that what you started with, or end with, is 'true' in that it corresponds to a 'state'. Nothing 'exists in a logical sense', logic doesn't relate to existence at all.

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