Logic limits us

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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jerlands
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by jerlands »

Londoner wrote: February 25th, 2018, 6:03 am
jerlands wrote: February 24th, 2018, 5:42 pm
Does the mind have any connection with the senses? What you're saying implies it doesn't..

Again, it seems you're separating the mind from the senses? There is no physical state, either in meditation or an isolation chamber, that will separate us from our senses. Sense is simply duality, it's this compared with that. If we breath we are experiencing duality.
Not me.

The OP says: Everything we percive as real is created in our minds. If that was the case, then we do not have senses. We might think we sense external things but if Everything we percive as real is created in our minds we don't.

So my point is that when the OP goes on to speak of what is 'real' or 'true' these words are meaningless, because if 'everything' is created in our minds then there is no external standard to which we can compare particular thoughts.

We are left stuck in solipsism with no possibility of escape.
I read his post differently than you. I didn't see the mind separated from the body but rather that he was expressing the mind was the culmination of our experience?
Londoner wrote: February 25th, 2018, 6:03 am
Me: They would neither be right or wrong. They might be valid, meaning that we had applied the rules of whatever system we had adopted, but that would not give us a 'fact', it would not tell us anything about any 'reality'.

The notion of right and wrong.. Doesn't right imply 'moving in a straight line' and wrong 'crooked?' Logic is a straight line where we can get from point a to point b without deviation. The problem with logic defining a state is that things don't exist in logical sense but coexist in dimension with everything else. It's like logically expressing fire so that it's comprehensible without experience
.

Right or wrong as described in the OP

My question is whether there are more sets of logic where a paradox for example would be a completly rational conclusion or where 2+2=3;
Of course we see those to be wrong but they could as well be correct in their own set of rules making them true. We defined them to be wrong, not show they are wrong.


Logic does not move us in a straight line, if that implies we end up somewhere different from where we started. Rather, it prevents us from wandering. It does not allow us to make unstated assumptions.

Like the examples in the OP, it is tautological. It only allows you to put what you started with in a different way. It doesn't tell you that what you started with, or end with, is 'true' in that it corresponds to a 'state'. Nothing 'exists in a logical sense', logic doesn't relate to existence at all.
I think my point was that using logic to define a dimensional state is incomplete. Does logic relate to existence at all? Theorists employ logic in an attempt to define existence but in my view it will not be complete without understanding the cause. Logic does however seem to prevent us from wandering as long as we have an objective. I guess I really don't understand what you're saying though?
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Londoner
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Londoner »

jerlands wrote: February 25th, 2018, 7:44 am I read his post differently than you. I didn't see the mind separated from the body but rather that he was expressing the mind was the culmination of our experience?
Yes, it could be. But it needs clarifying.
I think my point was that using logic to define a dimensional state is incomplete. Does logic relate to existence at all? Theorists employ logic in an attempt to define existence but in my view it will not be complete without understanding the cause. Logic does however seem to prevent us from wandering as long as we have an objective. I guess I really don't understand what you're saying though?
I do not think logic, understood strictly, can have anything to do with existence.

Logic is like numbers in a sum; the numbers don't mean anything. They can be positive or negative, but that isn't the equivalent of true/false, real/not-real. To write 'minus 3' isn't saying 'three is not true' or '3 doesn't exist'.

If we think of '3' as standing for something, as describing something that 'exists', then we can no longer do sums. An apple and an orange and a piano do not make a '3'. They remain separate things. We can only add them if we no longer think of them as 'things' but only as a pure abstraction '1'. Then we can say '1+1+1=3'. And if we were asked why '1+1+1=3', our reply would be that '3' means (amongst other things) '1+1+1'.

In other words, logic is a completely closed and formal system. It cannot describe objects of perception. We might illustrate logic using ordinary language ('If Socrates is a man...') but that is not really a claim that Socrates existed, because the same argument would be valid - in logic - whatever words you used (If Socrates is a horse...) or if we only used symbols that didn't stand for anything in particular.

I do not think the OP can have meant 'logic' in this strict sense, but I cannot tell what they did intend.
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jerlands
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Re: Logic limits us

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Londoner wrote: February 25th, 2018, 12:52 pm
I think my point was that using logic to define a dimensional state is incomplete. Does logic relate to existence at all? Theorists employ logic in an attempt to define existence but in my view it will not be complete without understanding the cause. Logic does however seem to prevent us from wandering as long as we have an objective. I guess I really don't understand what you're saying though?
I do not think logic, understood strictly, can have anything to do with existence.
The fact is logic exists and therefore can express an element of existence.
Londoner wrote: February 25th, 2018, 12:52 pm Logic is like numbers in a sum; the numbers don't mean anything. They can be positive or negative, but that isn't the equivalent of true/false, real/not-real. To write 'minus 3' isn't saying 'three is not true' or '3 doesn't exist'.
Numbers are actually just notions so they do have meaning all by themselves. One (1) relays a notion. Negativity is the same, it relays a notion by itself and -3 by itself also relays a notion. The problem is taking something out of context and trying to make sense of it.
Londoner wrote: February 25th, 2018, 12:52 pm If we think of '3' as standing for something, as describing something that 'exists', then we can no longer do sums. An apple and an orange and a piano do not make a '3'. They remain separate things. We can only add them if we no longer think of them as 'things' but only as a pure abstraction '1'. Then we can say '1+1+1=3'. And if we were asked why '1+1+1=3', our reply would be that '3' means (amongst other things) '1+1+1'.
If you have an empty room and put into it a chair, a lamp and a table what does your mind tell you? Then you put an orange on top of the table and what do you see?
Londoner wrote: February 25th, 2018, 12:52 pm In other words, logic is a completely closed and formal system. It cannot describe objects of perception. We might illustrate logic using ordinary language ('If Socrates is a man...') but that is not really a claim that Socrates existed, because the same argument would be valid - in logic - whatever words you used (If Socrates is a horse...) or if we only used symbols that didn't stand for anything in particular.

I do not think the OP can have meant 'logic' in this strict sense, but I cannot tell what they did intend.
I think the OP may have been hinting at the possibility of perceiving something outside our realm of reality and making rational sense of it. But that's hard to say 'cause he started this fire but hasn't been around to tend to it.
.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Namelesss
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Namelesss »

ApplicationBot wrote: February 23rd, 2018, 1:58 pm Everything we percive as real is created in our minds.
We create our reality based on facts, ideas and senses but the ultimate reality for us is what our mind logically creates.
... Finally, given that everything above is true,...
You take so much for granted!

"Everything above" is both true and false, depending on the Perspective.

Truth!, on the other hand, is ALL inclusive! Even of the component dualities.
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Londoner »

jerlands wrote: February 25th, 2018, 5:31 pm
The fact is logic exists and therefore can express an element of existence.
I do not understand what the claim that 'logic exists' could mean. Suppose I disagreed; what sort of evidence could we produce that would settle the question?
Numbers are actually just notions so they do have meaning all by themselves. One (1) relays a notion. Negativity is the same, it relays a notion by itself and -3 by itself also relays a notion. The problem is taking something out of context and trying to make sense of it.
They do not 'mean' anything in the sense of referring to any object, or sensation. '3' doesn't mean 'three oranges' or 'I hear three sounds'. I do not understand what calling numbers 'notions' implies.
If you have an empty room and put into it a chair, a lamp and a table what does your mind tell you? Then you put an orange on top of the table and what do you see?
I do not see any number. I do not think the orange has the attribute '4' because it is the fourth object, or that if you removed the chair the orange changes into being a '3'. The orange remains the same to my senses no matter how many objects there are in the room.

I can only count these things if I stop thinking of them as chairs, oranges etc. and abstract them into 'objects', so that they are all homogeneous, i.e. if I ignore the way they are presented to my senses.
I think the OP may have been hinting at the possibility of perceiving something outside our realm of reality and making rational sense of it. But that's hard to say 'cause he started this fire but hasn't been around to tend to it
.

Quite!
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jerlands
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Re: Logic limits us

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Londoner wrote: February 26th, 2018, 5:12 am
jerlands wrote: February 25th, 2018, 5:31 pm
The fact is logic exists and therefore can express an element of existence.
I do not understand what the claim that 'logic exists' could mean. Suppose I disagreed; what sort of evidence could we produce that would settle the question?
I think therefore I am. Logic is defined as reason and reason is the act of holding one thing in relation to another (ratio.) How this function arose in the human being is a discussion unto itself.
Londoner wrote: February 26th, 2018, 5:12 am
Numbers are actually just notions so they do have meaning all by themselves. One (1) relays a notion. Negativity is the same, it relays a notion by itself and -3 by itself also relays a notion. The problem is taking something out of context and trying to make sense of it.
They do not 'mean' anything in the sense of referring to any object, or sensation. '3' doesn't mean 'three oranges' or 'I hear three sounds'. I do not understand what calling numbers 'notions' implies.
Much of western civilizations learning and thought about number came from Greece. Greece however was taught in Egypt which is where a lot of our philosophical perspective of number originates. Ancient thought of number was that it represented becoming, order, function and structure. The notion of what we refer to as Zero (0) was something like inactive fullness, One (1) something like awakening, origin, completeness, activeness. Number is really an abstract idea (metaphysical) but is manifest in everything.
Londoner wrote: February 26th, 2018, 5:12 am
If you have an empty room and put into it a chair, a lamp and a table what does your mind tell you? Then you put an orange on top of the table and what do you see?
I do not see any number. I do not think the orange has the attribute '4' because it is the fourth object, or that if you removed the chair the orange changes into being a '3'. The orange remains the same to my senses no matter how many objects there are in the room.

I can only count these things if I stop thinking of them as chairs, oranges etc. and abstract them into 'objects', so that they are all homogeneous, i.e. if I ignore the way they are presented to my senses.
The duke lemur center conducted a study on primates ability to recognize quantity. Basically they showed how quantity is recognized no matter the shape, size, color or type of object placed within the study confines. The mind always perceives quantity but our thought translates that to number.
Londoner wrote: February 26th, 2018, 5:12 am
I think the OP may have been hinting at the possibility of perceiving something outside our realm of reality and making rational sense of it. But that's hard to say 'cause he started this fire but hasn't been around to tend to it
.

Quite!
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Namelesss
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Namelesss »

jerlands wrote: February 26th, 2018, 5:08 pm Logic is defined as reason and reason is the act of holding one thing in relation to another (ratio.)
THAT is 'duality'; the fragmentation of that which is One, that It might be Known!!!
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jerlands
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by jerlands »

Namelesss wrote: February 26th, 2018, 10:42 pm
jerlands wrote: February 26th, 2018, 5:08 pm Logic is defined as reason and reason is the act of holding one thing in relation to another (ratio.)
THAT is 'duality'; the fragmentation of that which is One, that It might be Known!!!
I thought you didn't recognise duality? Just oneness... no motion, no separation of state, all an illusion but the one?
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
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Re: Logic limits us

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jerlands wrote: February 26th, 2018, 10:59 pm
Namelesss wrote: February 26th, 2018, 10:42 pm
THAT is 'duality'; the fragmentation of that which is One, that It might be Known!!!
I thought you didn't recognise duality? Just oneness... no motion, no separation of state, all an illusion but the one?
As I said, the only way that Self/God can be Known is by duality. Duality is thought, it differentiates this from that.
Thought/duality provides 'context'.
God... has no context and, thus, cannot be Known, not even by OurSelf!
So the 'artificial imposition' of the 'duality grid' enables God's Self Knowledge!
It is this moment of thought/duality that is God's moment of complete Self Knowledge/Epiphany!
Talk about a 'Big Bang!'! *__-
(Right, it's not like they think! Not anything 'material/physical' about it!)
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jerlands
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Re: Logic limits us

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Namelesss wrote: February 26th, 2018, 11:24 pm As I said, the only way that Self/God can be Known is by duality.
I don't understand this ratio of Self with "God" so if you could spell that out for me?
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Sy Borg »

Richard Feynman had some useful thoughts on the application of scientific logic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkhBcLk_8f0

Jer, it's not a ratio above but a slash - God and/or Self. Basically it's a pantheistic view: since all is God then each "Self" is an expression of God.
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jerlands
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Re: Logic limits us

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Greta wrote: February 26th, 2018, 11:33 pm Richard Feynman had some useful thoughts on the application of scientific logic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkhBcLk_8f0

Jer, it's not a ratio above but a slash - God and/or Self. Basically it's a pantheistic view: since all is God then each "Self" is an expression of God.
And you also read minds :P

I don't think that's what he's saying.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
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Sy Borg
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Sy Borg »

Are we putting money on it? :lol:




Kidding. I don't gamble.
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jerlands
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by jerlands »

Greta wrote: February 26th, 2018, 11:42 pm Are we putting money on it? :lol:
Kidding. I don't gamble.
I'll explain... a ratio is a relation which he put self and "God" into and I just wanted clarification.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Namelesss
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Re: Logic limits us

Post by Namelesss »

jerlands wrote: February 26th, 2018, 11:32 pm
Namelesss wrote: February 26th, 2018, 11:24 pm As I said, the only way that Self/God can be Known is by duality.
I don't understand this ratio of Self with "God" so if you could spell that out for me?
This is the mystical experience/Knowledge, throughout history.
Logically, if God is Omni-, then not anything can exist that is not God.
Thus it is fair dinkum to see God in all and everything, and that includes you and I (whatever 'we' are)!

"God cannot know himself without me." - Meister Eckhart (Christian mystic)

"The eye by which I see God is the same as the eye by which God sees me. My eye and God's eye are one and the same." - Meister Eckhart

"All things are simply God to thee who seest only God in all things. Like one who looks long at the sun, he encounters the sun in whatever he afterwards looks at. If this is lacking, this looking for and seeing God in all and sundry, then thou lackest this birth." - Meister Eckhart

"What a man loves, he is. If he loves a stone he is that stone, if he loves a person he is that person, if he loves God - nay, I durst not say more; were I to say, he is God, he might stone me. I do but teach you the scriptures." - Meister Eckhart

There is no 'distinction/difference' between the Omni-God and anything perceived!

I understand that I have offered these quotes before, but we are always seeing with unique eyes.
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