Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

Time and space have a relationship: speed = distance / time

In Relativity, the faster you go, the slower time runs. In addition, every particle in the universe is bound by the speed of light limit.

So time is fundamental to the universe and built into its laws; its not just change; it governs change.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

devans99 wrote:You are taking an unreasonable stance:
1. Everything we know about for sure has a start
2. There is nothing we know about that does not have a start
So [1] is evidence for 'everything has a start'
And [2] is evidence against 'things exist without a start'
Sorry, this is still flawed reasoning as it relies on the ignorance of facts for/as its evidence. It is the classic "appealing-to-ignorance" logical fallacy.

Also it seems you contradict yourself (your points above) here:
Devans99 wrote:But I think that some matter, energy and spatial dimensions have always existed in a timeless base reality. Else we could not be here.
Here it seems that you admit to something "always existing" ( i.e. having "no-start").

Devans99 wrote:Base reality has spacial dimensions so there is space for things like the Big Bang to happen.
Did base reality "always exist"? ...or do you wish to continue kicking-the-can-down-the-road to claim another prior reality is responsible for the base reality which in turn is responsible for our existing reality?

Devans, 'something' has always existed. This is undeniable. Even the religious people claim something has always existed; their "always existing" God.

There is no way to avoid that 'something' (in all of reality) has "always existed" ...true?
devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

Something always existed; it is finite; it has starts and ends but it exists outside of time; it contains time:

1. Something can’t come from nothing
2. So base reality must have always existed
3. If base reality is permanent it must be timeless (to avoid actual infinity)
4. Also something without a start cannot exist, so time must have a start
5. Time was created and exists within this permanent, timeless, base reality
6. So time must be real, permanent and finite

Heres a funny thought; posit an universe infinite in time but finite in space plus some historians. Then there is not enough room in the universe to write down the whole history of the universe! They'd have to skip bits, bet they'd keep the start though ;)
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Devans99, you seem to make many contradictory claims here, most notably:
  • 1."Base reality has always existed" and
    2. "Something without a start cannot exist"
So if base reality has always existed, then it didn't have a 'start', ...right? And if it didn't have a 'start', then (as you claim) it could not exist. ...Devan, sorry, but you can't have it both ways!

I think it is time to admit, that 'something' in reality has 'always' existed (i.e. had NO start). There is no way to avoid this basic truth.

...or we can just continue to dance, kick the can down the road, or close our eyes to this unpalatable truth.
devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

Base reality has permanent existence and has starts and ends. You have to imagine the whole universe, including time, as a static block:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternalis ... y_of_time)

So everything has permanent existence. Everything is also finite with starts and ends spatially and temporally.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Devans, I think it is time for me to depart this conversation as it seems we are talking past each other. I enjoyed the interesting discussion. Take care my good friend.
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Present awareness
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Present awareness »

All matter in the universe is in a state of constant motion. Galaxies moving away from each other at increasing speeds, stars like the Sun, spinning in the spiral arms of the galaxies, planets like Earth, orbiting stars and spinning on their axis and yet I feel I’m sitting perfectly still in my living room chair! Beneath the skin it’s the same story, blood in constant motion running through veins, electrical impulses flowing through the brain and nervous system.

In order for matter to move, it needs space. Although we call it space and the word implies that space exists, it’s only because space does not exist, that matter has the room to move though it freely. Because space does not exist, it is limitless, it does not exist, everywhere! The space we occupied yesterday is identical to the space we occupy now, because it is not there.

Time may be thought of as the measurement of matter through space and “now” may be thought of as the “space” through which time moves.

If the above assumptions are correct, then something which does not exist, like space, has always not existed and therefore has no beginning or ending. The idea of creating something from nothing, does not seem logical either, so matter must have always existed as well. To create a middle man so to speak and say that God created everything does not solve the problem of whom created God.

I would conclude that all that exists, has always existed, only not in its current form.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

I would conclude that all that exists, has always existed, only not in its current form.
Out of interest. Why so confident?
Unknown means unknown.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Present Awareness wrote:All matter in the universe is in a state of constant motion. Galaxies moving away from each other at increasing speeds, stars like the Sun, spinning in the spiral arms of the galaxies, planets like Earth, orbiting stars and spinning on their axis and yet I feel I’m sitting perfectly still in my living room chair! Beneath the skin it’s the same story, blood in constant motion running through veins, electrical impulses flowing through the brain and nervous system.
...nice visual lead up.

Present Awareness wrote:In order for matter to move, it needs space. Although we call it space and the word implies that space exists, it’s only because space does not exist, that matter has the room to move though it freely. Because space does not exist, it is limitless, it does not exist, everywhere! The space we occupied yesterday is identical to the space we occupy now, because it is not there. Time may be thought of as the measurement of matter through space and “now” may be thought of as the “space” through which time moves.
...interesting perspective.

Present Awareness wrote:If the above assumptions are correct, then something which does not exist, like space, has always not existed and therefore has no beginning or ending. The idea of creating something from nothing, does not seem logical either, so matter must have always existed as well. To create a middle man so to speak and say that God created everything does not solve the problem of whom created God.
...agreed, ...it only kicks the can (problem) down the road.

Present Awareness wrote:I would conclude that all that exists, has always existed, only not in its current form.
...Well Said, ...and nice post Present Awareness.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Belindi »

devans99 wrote: October 13th, 2018, 11:59 am Time and space have a relationship: speed = distance / time

In Relativity, the faster you go, the slower time runs. In addition, every particle in the universe is bound by the speed of light limit.

So time is fundamental to the universe and built into its laws; its not just change; it governs change.
Then do these laws governed by time ensure that each event is relative to other events?
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Present Awareness wrote:I would conclude that all that exists, has always existed, only not in its current form.
Eduk wrote:Out of interest. Why so confident?
The confidence (in my case) comes from Simple Logic. X cannot logically precede the existence of its own self so as to then cause/create itself. X < X is not logically possible. Creating creation is not logically possible. Therefore if creation exists, it has "always existed" (i.e. was "not created').

Furthermore, there has NEVER EVER been a rational argument which presupposes a NON-"always existing" element. In fact, it is impossible to even conceive of a 'created' creation without presupposing some "always existing" element. If we look close enough we will see that ALL proposed arguments (for a 'created' creation/universe) commit the non-explanatory logical fallacy of "kicking the can down the road".

If logic is our guide to reasoning, then the universe has always existed.
If logic is not our guide to reasoning, then 'anything' is possible.
Last edited by RJG on October 25th, 2018, 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

RJG. Have you ever made any mistakes?
Unknown means unknown.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:If logic is our guide to reasoning, then the universe has "always existed".
Eduk wrote:RJG. Have you ever made any mistakes?
I have. Can you point out the mistake in my conclusion?
Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

Not sure. Hubris? Fear of some kind? Difficulty with not 'knowing'?

I already pointed out the ridiculousness of somehow thinking you know what the nature of reality is in earlier posts. They had zero effect then, so I doubt anything has changed.
Unknown means unknown.
devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

I've got a much better proof of Eternalism now. First have to prove that time has a start:

- The universe follows rules that our described by mathematics. Negative infinity does not exist mathematically. Proof: there is no number X such that X< all other numbers because X-1<X. Hence eternity (in time) is impossible

- If time did not have a start then an actual infinity of time has passed so far which is impossible

- Imagine an eternal being; impossible to exist; he would have no start. Being is possible we therefore conclude Eternal is not

- If reality is eternal (in time)
- it has no temporal start
- so it can’t exist

- Time came to a stop at the Big Bang (likely candidate for start of time).

Next, prove Eternalism:

- Time had a start
- Your a timeless being
- Looking at a universe
- Which version do you see?
- ‘Latest’ does not mean anything timelessly
- So it must be all versions
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