Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
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- Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
- RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
Yes, of course, "my logic" (and all other "cause and effects") are NOT responsible for creating the universe.Eduk wrote:If cause and effect are off the table then logic (to be clear your logic) is off the table too.
- Consul
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
That is:
rather thanConsul wrote:…
Okay?!…
- Consul
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
Theistic philosophers have presented rational arguments for the contingent existence of the universe. Of course, whether those arguments are sound is another question.
No, it's not like that, simply because if time is infinite toward the past and toward the future, no one could travel from one end of it to the other, since there are no such ends. What you could do at most is travel from some past year to some future year, since the temporal distance between any two years is finite.
I don't have to give any examples, because my point is a purely conceptual one: an uncaused event is a non-effect by definition. And that all events are either causes or effects isn't an essential part of the concept of an event. Causeless or effectless events are unlike unmarried bachelors. That is, if there are no such events, their nonexistence doesn't follow from the definition of "event".
- Mosesquine
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
The most influential analysis of causation is David Lewis' version of counterfactual analysis of causation, and it analyzes causation as follows: C causes E if and only if, if it were the case that it is not the case that C occurs, then it would be the case that it is not the case that E occurs. (Of course, C and E above are assumed as events...)
The style of logical-forms-oriented analysis of causation by Davidson (and probably by Quine) goes as follows:
(∃x)(x is an event of such and such & (∃y)(y is another event of such and such & x ≠ y & x caused y))
or
(∃x)(x is an event of such and such & ~(∃y)(y is an event of such and such & x ≠ y) & (∃z)(z is another event of such and such & ~(∃y)(y is another event of such and such & z ≠ y) & x caused z))
The second style above does not define causation, but describes causation. A number of philosophers would prefer the second approach above.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
I see no logical way to test for bosons. I might, after a lot of really rigorous study, manage to understand how they did this. I might not. That's now. I I am sure people pre-Einstein would not have been able to imagine he could conclude the things he did, and not at all in the manner he did. I don't think pre-big bang type conclusions....you get the idea. What people will be able to demonstrate in the future, I don't know. They might be able to rule out an uncaused cause. What do I know?Eduk wrote: ↑October 9th, 2018, 12:35 pm Karpel. I see no logical way to measure or test for infinity. I know of no method to do so. I know of no reasonable proposal to do so. Perhaps in the future a method is developed but it's a long shot. I mean ultimately we can't know anything at all but that is of little utility.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
why do you think the infinity thing is a dead end - of no use, cannot ever be tested, or impossible - when the best experts in astrophysics and cosmology have not reached this conclusion?
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
For example many famous physicists present an either or. It's finite or it's infinite. I see no reason why reality has to conform to this expectation, it could be something else. Like I said if I had to bet I'd say it's neither. That's not based off anything other than that I have no expectation that what I think holds any great weight. I mean I don't know what my intellect is relative to what is possible, but I assume it's nowhere close to what is possible. And once we start talking about what is impossible then I assume my intellect is pretty close to zero. I doubt very much that I can conceptualise what the nature of reality is, I suspect it is impossible. This is just reasonable humility in my opinion.
To put it another way the concept of infinity doesn't make sense in a physical world. If the universe was actually infinite I think it would be a kind of infinite which was incomprehensible to the human mind and therefore it isn't the kind of infinite that we ponder it might be. Of course words kind of fail me here.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
Sure, but they darn well mention infinity all the time. They place it in models, they tinker with models using the idea. They do not rule out being able to be certain later. They consider it a useful idea.
If I seach articles in astrophysics publications 'infinite' comes up 43,965 times. Even the rather religious sounding 'eternal' gets me 771 hits.
I guess I don't agree that infinite doesn't make sense. From where I sit both infinite and finite seem utterly bizzare.To put it another way the concept of infinity doesn't make sense in a physical world. If the universe was actually infinite I think it would be a kind of infinite which was incomprehensible to the human mind and therefore it isn't the kind of infinite that we ponder it might be. Of course words kind of fail me here.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
I agree.From where I sit both infinite and finite seem utterly bizzare.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth"
A finite universe created by a finite god. Have a look at Deism - it allows god and logic to co-exist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
- RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?
Really??? --- I would love to see how we "ruled out infinite". Please provide the text (and logic) of this bold claim.Devans99 wrote:And we've ruled out infinite.
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