Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

If cause and effect are off the table then logic (to be clear your logic) is off the table too.
Unknown means unknown.
Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

Karpel. I see no logical way to measure or test for infinity. I know of no method to do so. I know of no reasonable proposal to do so. Perhaps in the future a method is developed but it's a long shot. I mean ultimately we can't know anything at all but that is of little utility.
Unknown means unknown.
Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

This is always the problem when you define things by what they aren't. What they are is undefined. If you divide a number by zero you don't get infinity you get undefined. If I find something undefined have I found what happens if you divide a number by zero? If the universe is infinite what does that even mean? I can't conceptualise an infinite universe. It is impossible for a human to conceptualise an actual infinite space. I can't absolutely rule it out because I can't rule anything out absolutely.
Unknown means unknown.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Eduk wrote:If cause and effect are off the table then logic (to be clear your logic) is off the table too.
Yes, of course, "my logic" (and all other "cause and effects") are NOT responsible for creating the universe.
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Consul
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Consul »

@Eduk: When you quote statements of mine, do not omit my name!

That is:
Consul wrote:
rather than
Okay?!
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Consul »

Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 11:08 am
Consul wrote:Theists will reply that, as opposed to God, the universe is not a self-existent necessary entity.
Anyone can say anything. The key is reason, evidence, predictive power and so on.
Theistic philosophers have presented rational arguments for the contingent existence of the universe. Of course, whether those arguments are sound is another question.
Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 11:08 am Because infinity is unbounded therefore an infinite amount of time cannot pass. It's like walking from one end of an infinite ruler to the other, there will always be more ruler.
No, it's not like that, simply because if time is infinite toward the past and toward the future, no one could travel from one end of it to the other, since there are no such ends. What you could do at most is travel from some past year to some future year, since the temporal distance between any two years is finite.
Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 11:08 am
Consul wrote:Of course, such an event is not an effect.
Give me an example of an uncaused event which isn't an effect.
I don't have to give any examples, because my point is a purely conceptual one: an uncaused event is a non-effect by definition. And that all events are either causes or effects isn't an essential part of the concept of an event. Causeless or effectless events are unlike unmarried bachelors. That is, if there are no such events, their nonexistence doesn't follow from the definition of "event".
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Mosesquine
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Mosesquine »

Causation is one of much discussed topic among philosophers. There are two approaches to causation: the first and most popular one is conceptual analysis approach represented by Mackie/Lewis, etc., and the second important one is logical-forms-oriented approach suggested by Davidson/Quine, etc.
The most influential analysis of causation is David Lewis' version of counterfactual analysis of causation, and it analyzes causation as follows: C causes E if and only if, if it were the case that it is not the case that C occurs, then it would be the case that it is not the case that E occurs. (Of course, C and E above are assumed as events...)
The style of logical-forms-oriented analysis of causation by Davidson (and probably by Quine) goes as follows:
(∃x)(x is an event of such and such & (∃y)(y is another event of such and such & x ≠ y & x caused y))
or
(∃x)(x is an event of such and such & ~(∃y)(y is an event of such and such & x ≠ y) & (∃z)(z is another event of such and such & ~(∃y)(y is another event of such and such & z ≠ y) & x caused z))
The second style above does not define causation, but describes causation. A number of philosophers would prefer the second approach above.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 12:35 pm Karpel. I see no logical way to measure or test for infinity. I know of no method to do so. I know of no reasonable proposal to do so. Perhaps in the future a method is developed but it's a long shot. I mean ultimately we can't know anything at all but that is of little utility.
I see no logical way to test for bosons. I might, after a lot of really rigorous study, manage to understand how they did this. I might not. That's now. I I am sure people pre-Einstein would not have been able to imagine he could conclude the things he did, and not at all in the manner he did. I don't think pre-big bang type conclusions....you get the idea. What people will be able to demonstrate in the future, I don't know. They might be able to rule out an uncaused cause. What do I know?
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Eduk, as you would say,
why do you think the infinity thing is a dead end - of no use, cannot ever be tested, or impossible - when the best experts in astrophysics and cosmology have not reached this conclusion?
Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

I thought the conclusion that the best experts had made is that they don't know as they have no evidence. They may theorise but at this point they are not using their expertise in astrophysics.
For example many famous physicists present an either or. It's finite or it's infinite. I see no reason why reality has to conform to this expectation, it could be something else. Like I said if I had to bet I'd say it's neither. That's not based off anything other than that I have no expectation that what I think holds any great weight. I mean I don't know what my intellect is relative to what is possible, but I assume it's nowhere close to what is possible. And once we start talking about what is impossible then I assume my intellect is pretty close to zero. I doubt very much that I can conceptualise what the nature of reality is, I suspect it is impossible. This is just reasonable humility in my opinion.
To put it another way the concept of infinity doesn't make sense in a physical world. If the universe was actually infinite I think it would be a kind of infinite which was incomprehensible to the human mind and therefore it isn't the kind of infinite that we ponder it might be. Of course words kind of fail me here.
Unknown means unknown.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Eduk wrote: October 10th, 2018, 6:16 am I thought the conclusion that the best experts had made is that they don't know as they have no evidence. They may theorise but at this point they are not using their expertise in astrophysics.
Sure, but they darn well mention infinity all the time. They place it in models, they tinker with models using the idea. They do not rule out being able to be certain later. They consider it a useful idea.

If I seach articles in astrophysics publications 'infinite' comes up 43,965 times. Even the rather religious sounding 'eternal' gets me 771 hits.
To put it another way the concept of infinity doesn't make sense in a physical world. If the universe was actually infinite I think it would be a kind of infinite which was incomprehensible to the human mind and therefore it isn't the kind of infinite that we ponder it might be. Of course words kind of fail me here.
I guess I don't agree that infinite doesn't make sense. From where I sit both infinite and finite seem utterly bizzare.
Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

From where I sit both infinite and finite seem utterly bizzare.
I agree.
Unknown means unknown.
devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

There is no third way. Its either finite or infinite. Bounded or Unbounded. And we've ruled out infinite.

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth"

A finite universe created by a finite god. Have a look at Deism - it allows god and logic to co-exist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

Thus spake devans99
Unknown means unknown.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Devans99 wrote:And we've ruled out infinite.
Really??? --- I would love to see how we "ruled out infinite". Please provide the text (and logic) of this bold claim.
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