Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Eduk wrote:When I am driving I often see a driver make a small driving mistake. It is often the case that such small mistakes are followed by other small mistakes. It's not a one hundred percent rule of course but if I do see a small mistake I drive in a way which allows for follow up mistakes.
I suspect the driver who makes many small mistakes almost certainly doesn't realise. They probably think they are above average.
In this analogy (lecture?), is this arrogant mistake-prone driver me, or YOU? If it is me, then I am sure you can easily point out my mistake(s); the flaws in my reasoning, ...true? ...or can you???

Eduk wrote:I am very hopeful you will realise that you can't really do logic and will adjust your behaviour to reflect this. Perhaps, to take my driving analogy, drive a little slower?
And you too my friend.

Saying I "can't do logic" and proving it are two different matters. I really look forward to you pointing out the logical flaws in my argument. Hopefully you will realize that you are just full of hot air and will adjust your behavior and stop making baseless accusations that you can't possibly back up.

Maybe you should heed your own condescending advice?

Eduk wrote:I invite you to investigate your claim that I am commiting the appeal to ignorance logical fallacy. Perhaps you can explain what this means and provide some clear examples then show how this applies to my claim.
To put it simply, instead of logically disputing my claim/explanation, you arrogantly deny (without reason!) my explanation in favor of 'ignorance'; of "unknown" explanations.

Again, if my logic is flawed, then please point it out. Otherwise save the condescending lectures for yourself.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

So existence is an uncaused cause which has always existed, and we know this because you can't think of any other options. And I'm the one being accused of appeal
to ignorance? What evidence fits this theory? What predictions do you make based off of this theory?

I am saying that because I don't know what the nature of reality is then I don't know what the nature of reality is. This is not an appeal to ignorance.

Oh and you shouldn't be scared of failure. That is how we improve. If I say something stupid then ideally I realise this and correct. You shouldn't be ashamed.
Unknown means unknown.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Eduk wrote:So existence is an uncaused cause which has always existed, and we know this because you can't think of any other options.
Now you are just making stuff up. Please attack my actual words, and not your strawman's.

There is NO "cause", "uncaused cause", or beginning point at all. If existence (time/space/matter) exists, then logically it has ALWAYS existed. Please attack these words (and my premises that support this conclusion), and not your strawman's.

I suspect most don't want to accept this logical truth because it is very unsatisfying. We seemingly go to great lengths so as to avoid the ugly/unsatisfying truths. Most prefer to believe in "feel-good" truths, while closing their eyes to ugly logical truths.

Eduk wrote:Oh and you shouldn't be scared of failure. That is how we improve. If I say something stupid then ideally I realise this and correct. You shouldn't be ashamed.
...seriously Eduk? ...more condescending lectures?

How about putting aside your immaturity, and point out the error in my reasoning. If all you can counter with are insults then you have lost this debate.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

You just replace one logical impossibility with another. Let me try to summarise the origin of existence.
1. God did it. This just shifts the question of the origin of the universe to the origin of God. There is zero explanatory advantage to saying God did it plus we are still left with the initial question.
2. The universe has always existed. Given that each effect must be preceded by a cause this causes an infinite regression which cannot be resolved. It would be logically impossible for an infinity of time to precede the current point in time.
3. An uncaused cause did it. This too makes no logical sense. Again all effects must be preceded by a cause. There is zero evidence to suggest an effect can occur without a cause.
4. Existence is eternal. There is no starting point. There is no time. There is no cause and effect. This, to be fair, is not the worst attempt. But is easily refuted by the fact my pen drops when I let go of it.

For my money existence is a logical impossibility. But here we are. So what conclusions do I draw? That I know all there is to know and can surely just fit the pieces together to get the right answer? That there are unknown unknowns which if I did find them would explain all? Or that it is literally inconceivable (for a human)? If I had to bet I'd go for inconceivable first and unknown unknowns second. You seem to be assuming you know all there is to know and that what you say makes sense. But your explanation offers no explanatory power. Makes no predictions. Fits no evidence. Is unprovable. And is generally very underwhelming considering you have answered the single greatest question known to mankind. Personally I would have hoped for something more, significant.
Unknown means unknown.
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Consul
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Consul »

Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 8:41 am You just replace one logical impossibility with another. Let me try to summarise the origin of existence.
1. God did it. This just shifts the question of the origin of the universe to the origin of God. There is zero explanatory advantage to saying God did it plus we are still left with the initial question.
Theists will reply that God is a self-existent necessary being.
Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 8:41 am2. The universe has always existed. Given that each effect must be preceded by a cause this causes an infinite regression which cannot be resolved. It would be logically impossible for an infinity of time to precede the current point in time.
There's nothing logically inconsistent about an infinite regress of causes.
Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 8:41 am3. An uncaused cause did it. This too makes no logical sense. Again all effects must be preceded by a cause. There is zero evidence to suggest an effect can occur without a cause.
Of course, a causeless effect or an effectless cause is a contradiction in terms; but it doesn't follow that a causeless event, an effectless event, and a causeless cause are contradictions in terms too.
Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 8:41 amFor my money existence is a logical impossibility. But here we are.
What is actual is (logically&ontologically) possible.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

Theists will reply that God is a self-existent necessary being.
That is identical to saying the universe is self-existent and necessary. Adding or removing God makes no difference.
There's nothing logically inconsistent about an infinite regress of causes.
An infinity cannot physically exist. It is impossible for an infinite amount of time to have passed before this point.
Of course, a causeless effect or an effectless cause is a contradiction in terms; but it doesn't follow that a causeless event, an effectless event, and a causeless cause are contradictions in terms too.
An event is different to an effect? Please demonstrate what you mean?
What is actual is (logically&ontologically) possible.
Do I make a different conclusion?
Unknown means unknown.
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Consul
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Consul »

[When you quote statements of mine, do not omit my name!]
Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 10:38 am
Consul wrote:Theists will reply that God is a self-existent necessary being.
That is identical to saying the universe is self-existent and necessary. Adding or removing God makes no difference.
Theists will reply that, as opposed to God, the universe is not a self-existent necessary entity.
Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 10:38 am
Consul wrote:There's nothing logically inconsistent about an infinite regress of causes.
An infinity cannot physically exist. It is impossible for an infinite amount of time to have passed before this point.
What's impossible about it?
Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 10:38 am
Consul wrote:Of course, a causeless effect or an effectless cause is a contradiction in terms; but it doesn't follow that a causeless event, an effectless event, and a causeless cause are contradictions in terms too.
An event is different to an effect? Please demonstrate what you mean?
An effect is defined as a caused event, so a causeless effect would contradictorily be an uncaused caused event; but it doesn't follow that an uncaused event is equally impossible. Of course, such an event is not an effect.
Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 10:38 am
Consul wrote:What is actual is (logically&ontologically) possible.
Do I make a different conclusion?
You wrote: "For my money existence is a logical impossibility. But here we are."

Given the fact that we are here, existence is not a logical impossibility.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Eduk wrote:1. God did it. This just shifts the question of the origin of the universe to the origin of God. There is zero explanatory advantage to saying God did it plus we are still left with the initial question.
Agreed. This is not a viable explanation, but only just kicks the can down the road.

Eduk wrote:2. The universe has always existed. Given that each effect must be preceded by a cause this causes an infinite regression which cannot be resolved. It would be logically impossible for an infinity of time to precede the current point in time.
Not so. This is where you make your error. A "cause and effect" interaction is ONLY possible in an 'already existing' universe (time/space/matter). Without time, there is no time to interact. Without space, there is no place to interact. Without matter, there is nothing to interact. Without a pre-existing universe, there can be no "cause and effect". Therefore "cause and effect" has absolutely NO bearing or relevance whatsoever to the start of the universe.

Eduk wrote:3. An uncaused cause did it. This too makes no logical sense. Again all effects must be preceded by a cause. There is zero evidence to suggest an effect can occur without a cause.
Again, "cause and effects" are merely the result of, and occur within, an already existing universe.

Eduk wrote:For my money existence is a logical impossibility. But here we are. So what conclusions do I draw? That I know all there is to know and can surely just fit the pieces together to get the right answer?
The only logical possible answer is the universe has "ALWAYS existed".

Eduk wrote:But your explanation offers no explanatory power.
Sure it does. It is just that we don't like the answer that logic tells us. It is the 'accepting' of this non-palatable truth that is the real problem/issue here. But then again, since when has truth ever cared about what we like/dislike?
Last edited by RJG on October 9th, 2018, 11:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

Theists will reply that, as opposed to God, the universe is not a self-existent necessary entity.
Anyone can say anything. The key is reason, evidence, predictive power and so on. For example the reason that existence is possible is 'because I said so'. I can't prove this. I offer no reason for this. I offer no evidence to support this. I make no predictions based upon this. As I said before I would expect the answer to how the universe is possible to be more profound than 'because I said so'.
What's impossible about it?
Because infinity is unbounded therefore an infinite amount of time cannot pass. It's like walking from one end of an infinite ruler to the other, there will always be more ruler.
Of course, such an event is not an effect.
Give me an example of an uncaused event which isn't an effect.
You wrote: "For my money existence is a logical impossibility. But here we are."

Given the fact that we are here, existence is not a logical impossibility.
Did you stop reading at that point? Maybe try reading the rest of what I said.
Unknown means unknown.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

Sure it does. It is just that we don't like the answer that logic tells us. It is the 'accepting' of this non-palatable truth that is the real problem/issue here. But then again, since when has truth ever cared about what we like/dislike?
No if I say X makes offers no explanatory power you can't just say yes it does. You have to explain what that explanatory power is.
Not so. This is where you make your error. A "cause and effect" interaction is ONLY possible in an 'already existing' universe (time/space/matter). Without time, there is no time to interact. Without space, there is no place to interact. Without matter, there is nothing to interact. Without a pre-existing universe, there can be no "cause and effect". Therefore "cause and effect" has absolutely NO bearing or relevance to the start of the universe.
I only exist within the universe. 'Outside' of the universe it is currently (and probably permanently) impossible to KNOW anything. There are zero data points. If cause and effect is off the table then everything is off the table. Again unless you have any evidence whatsoever?
Again, "cause and effects" are merely results within an already existing universe.
The problem here is that you are creating another universe to explain our universe. That is identical to saying God did it.
Unknown means unknown.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 11:08 am Because infinity is unbounded therefore an infinite amount of time cannot pass. It's like walking from one end of an infinite ruler to the other, there will always be more ruler.
It's an interesting issue. But if there was no starting point, then an infinite amount of time stretches backward (and one from this present moment forward, also). Cut infinity in two and each 'half' is still infinite.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 8:41 am 2. The universe has always existed. Given that each effect must be preceded by a cause this causes an infinite regression which cannot be resolved. It would be logically impossible for an infinity of time to precede the current point in time.
It seems to me you just did what you objected to. You proved something without evidence. But perhaps this is someone else's position.
In any case, it would be news to cosmologists and astrophysicists that you can rule out the universe always having existed. There is no consensus on this issue in that community.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

It's an interesting issue. But if there was no starting point, then an infinite amount of time stretches backward (and one from this present moment forward, also). Cut infinity in two and each 'half' is still infinite.
Infinity is a useful concept. No reason to think it is real though. Certainly within the universe it would be impossible to prove something were infinite even if there was something that was infinite. Likewise being here now with no starting point makes no sense. I can go from A to B I cannot simply be at B.
It seems to me you just did what you objected to. You proved something without evidence. But perhaps this is someone else's position.
In any case, it would be news to cosmologists and astrophysicists that you can rule out the universe always having existed. There is no consensus on this issue in that community.
Maybe the universe did always exist. It's just there is no logical way to arrive at this conclusion and no evidence that it is the case (granted there is no evidence to the contrary either but that is weak). In the future there may be advances in evidence and logic, perhaps one day humans will be able to explain the nature of existence, currently however we categorically do not. As I said before, if I had to bet I would not bet on any existing known theory, I would bet the answer was physically inconceivable. But that is only a bet, I do not in anyway seek to present that as fact. The only fact I do know is that no one knows.
Unknown means unknown.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Eduk wrote: October 9th, 2018, 11:44 am Infinity is a useful concept. No reason to think it is real though. Certainly within the universe it would be impossible to prove something were infinite even if there was something that was infinite. Likewise being here now with no starting point makes no sense. I can go from A to B I cannot simply be at B.
Didn't get this. Either the first or second part, though perhaps it is all one point. I am not sure I can rule out scientists one day proving that something is infinite. I recognize that they will not be able to measure it, at least not in any way I can imagine. But there might be other ways to draw the conclusion and draw it well. Though here you seem to be talking about volume not time, but perhaps you mean in general.

Maybe the universe did always exist. It's just there is no logical way to arrive at this conclusion and no evidence that it is the case (granted there is no evidence to the contrary either but that is weak). In the future there may be advances in evidence and logic, perhaps one day humans will be able to explain the nature of existence, currently however we categorically do not. As I said before, if I had to bet I would not bet on any existing known theory, I would bet the answer was physically inconceivable. But that is only a bet, I do not in anyway seek to present that as fact. The only fact I do know is that no one knows.
OK, so you moved from ruling out using deduction that the universe is infinite, and now are saying that right now no one knows. That would tend to be my position.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Eduk wrote:I only exist within the universe. 'Outside' of the universe it is currently (and probably permanently) impossible to KNOW anything. There are zero data points. If cause and effect is off the table then everything is off the table.
Yes. Cause and effect are "off the table". The universe cannot be caused, because causation does not exist prior to time/space/matter. Therefore, if the universe cannot be caused/started/created, then it has ALWAYS existed. There is no other logical possibility!

Eduk wrote:Again unless you have any evidence whatsoever?
I have simple logic, which is IMPOSSIBLE to defy. X cannot exist prior to its own existence, so as to then create itself. Time/space/matter cannot exist prior to its own existence, so as to then create itself. Therefore, if time/space/matter exist, then it has ALWAYS existed.

Simple logic tells us the answer to this mysterious question. But many/most of us reject this obvious truth/answer because of its unpalatable-ness (unsatisfying nature). But truth is not subject to palatable-ness. We can accept this truth, or keep searching for a "feel-good" fairy tale replacement. I suppose it all depends on that which each of us are truly searching for.

RJG wrote:Again, "cause and effects" are merely results within an already existing universe.
Eduk wrote:The problem here is that you are creating another universe to explain our universe. That is identical to saying God did it.
Not so. You misunderstand my words. Your error is claiming that the cart pulls the horse (instead of vice versa). You claim the universe comes from a 'cause', when in fact the 'cause' comes from the universe.

If the cause is the result (comes 'after' the existence) of the universe, then it is too late for the universe to be caused! The universe cannot be caused (or created), therefore, if it exists, it has ALWAYS existed.
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