Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

devans99 wrote:Its a thought experiment and he is telling the truth. You are just having problems excepting that things without a start are paradoxical I think.
You can't measure infinity. The inability to measure it does not mean it does not exist.

devans99 wrote:If you are a determinist then all of reality is just cause and effect.
Yes, for determinists, all events/happenings are via cause and effect. But this doesn't mean cause-and-effect, effects time. Without time, there could be no causal interactions; no events/happenings.

devans wrote:One version of the prime mover says you can trace these chains of cause and effect back to an original 'uncaused cause'; IE God. Whether you believe that or not; the alternative of non-terminating chains of cause and effect is unacceptable; those chains would have no start so they could not exist.
Again, what do these causal chains have to do with the start of the universe? Without pre-existing time/space/matter, there could be NO causal interactions, nor chains.

Secondly, and although irrelevant, who says causal chains must grow linearly with time? Other than one cause creating one effect, can't one 'cause' create multiple effects? And can't multiple causes create just one effect?

Again, and again, causation has absolutely nothing to do with the start/creation of time. Causation is responsible for the actions/events/happenings WITHIN the box, and has nothing to do with the creating of the box in which it resides.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

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devans99 wrote:BTW, the answer to the paradox is that no such being could exist because 'always existing in time' is impossible.
"Time always exists", is not "always existing in time". These are two different concepts.

devans99 wrote:Do you not see that your insistence on 'no starting point' means that our universe could not exist at all?
No, I don't see that. Can you show your logic in a syllogism (premises/conclusion). If we wish to reason with logic, then there is only ONE logical possibility. And that is that the universe has "always existed", ...there is no other logical possibility.

Your implication that "no starting point" equates to "no universe" is not logically founded. If you truly believe it is so, then please provide a syllogism (complete with premises/conclusion) that supports your implication. I would really love to see it.
devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

RJG wrote: October 12th, 2018, 5:23 pm
devans99 wrote:Its a thought experiment and he is telling the truth. You are just having problems excepting that things without a start are paradoxical I think.
You can't measure infinity. The inability to measure it does not mean it does not exist.
You can't measure it because its undefined, unbounded. Its an error, an aberration, an illogical way of thinking.



RJG wrote: October 12th, 2018, 5:23 pm
devans99 wrote:Its a thought experiment and he is telling the truth. You are just having problems excepting that things without a start are paradoxical I think.
devans99 wrote:If you are a determinist then all of reality is just cause and effect.
Yes, for determinists, all events/happenings are via cause and effect. But this doesn't mean cause-and-effect, effects time. Without time, there could be no causal interactions; no events/happenings.
But cause and effect take place within time and should do so in a non-contradictory manner. That is the problem with your 'always existing within time' approach; its not compatible with Causality; hence all the contradictions it generates.


IT IS REALLY SIMPLE THINGS WITHOUT A START DON'T EXIST
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

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Devans99 wrote:IT IS REALLY SIMPLE THINGS WITHOUT A START DON'T EXIST.
Shouting your belief, doesn't make it true. Please show the logic that supports this belief.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

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Anything that exists, its possible to identify spacial and temporal start points (a circle has many to choose from). If it don't have spacial and temporal start; it logically cannot exist. So reality with no temporal start just can't exist.

So for example a quark would have temporal start of the Big Bang. The quark could not exist for ever within time because then it would have no temporal start so would not exist. The quark does however, exist 'for ever' outside of time (in the 4D space time way of thinking).

You have not commented on Special Relativity. If you buy that, then you buy 4D space time. Whats your problem with it?
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

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Devans99 wrote:Anything that exists, its possible to identify spacial and temporal start points (a circle has many to choose from). If it don't have spacial and temporal start; it logically cannot exist. So reality with no temporal start just can't exist.

So for example a quark would have temporal start of the Big Bang. The quark could not exist for ever within time because then it would have no temporal start so would not exist. The quark does however, exist 'for ever' outside of time (in the 4D space time way of thinking).

You have not commented on Special Relativity. If you buy that, then you buy 4D space time. Whats your problem with it?
I'm interested in your 'logic', not your 'science'. I'm looking for your logic that specifically concludes with "C1. Therefore, things without a start don't exist".
devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

I'm not sure I can drill down any further with the logical argument. I'm reduced to examples.

You have a start; take away your birth, what would you be?

There is ample empirical evidence from nature that things always have a spacial and temporal start. You have been unable to give any counter examples.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

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Devans99 wrote:You have a start; take away your birth, what would you be? There is ample empirical evidence from nature that things always have a spacial and temporal start.
Examples, or evidence of things that exist with a start does not logically disprove the possibility of things existing without a start.

Devans99 wrote:You have been unable to give any counter examples.
Well, I gave the example that 'circles' have no-start-point, as there are always points to the left and right (CW and CCW) of any and every point on the circumference. "Start" implies there are no points before the starting point. ...but yet you rejected this as a valid example, seemingly because it did not meet your definition of no-starting-point.

Okay, so then how about 'matter'? You believe the first law of thermodynamics? Matter cannot be created (has no-starting-point), but yet it exists all around us, ...right?
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

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RJG wrote: October 12th, 2018, 8:02 pm
Devans99 wrote:You have a start; take away your birth, what would you be? There is ample empirical evidence from nature that things always have a spacial and temporal start.
Examples, or evidence of things that exist with a start does not logically disprove the possibility of things existing without a start.

Devans99 wrote:You have been unable to give any counter examples.
Well, I gave the example that 'circles' have no-start-point, as there are always points to the left and right (CW and CCW) of any and every point on the circumference. "Start" implies there are no points before the starting point. ...but yet you rejected this as a valid example, seemingly because it did not meet your definition of no-starting-point.
But you can always identify a start point on a circle; all points on the circle can be used as a start. Start in a spacial sense means one extremity of the object, in this case, any point on the circle.

Everything that we know of for sure has a start; we can't observe the start of space and time directly but the fact everything else has a start is strongly suggestive that space and time will have too. The alternative, existing without a start, is paradoxical and mythical. Something that does not have a start is undefined so cannot exist. You asked me to prove this; I think its axiomatic; a self-evident truth; it can't be proved, but it is in line with common sense and experience.
RJG wrote: October 12th, 2018, 8:02 pm
Okay, so then how about 'matter'? You believe the first law of thermodynamics? Matter cannot be created (has no-starting-point), but yet it exists all around us, ...right?
Energy is conserved you mean. Time having a start does not violate this principle. Energy could pre-exist the start of time / big bang. So could matter.

In fact there must of been energy and matter in the pre-time base reality. Some of may have been used for the big bang, or matter / energy could have been created by exchanging it for 'negative gravitational energy' as the theory of Eternal Inflation speculates.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

I'd like to see someone draw a circle without starting somewhere.
Unknown means unknown.
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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

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Devans99 wrote:Everything that we know of for sure has a start; we can't observe the start of space and time directly but the fact everything else has a start is strongly suggestive that space and time will have too.
Not so. This is flawed reasoning via an appeal-to-ignorance. --- The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Devans99 wrote:Energy could pre-exist the start of time / big bang. So could matter. In fact there must of been energy and matter in the pre-time base reality.
So then you do believe matter/energy (and space?) have always existed?

Devans99 wrote:Some of may have been used for the big bang, or matter / energy could have been created by exchanging it for 'negative gravitational energy' as the theory of Eternal Inflation speculates.
But doesn't it take 'time' (and space?) to create/exchange/transform this matter/energy?

Or can happenings actually 'occur' in a timeless state (and no place to happen)?
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Belindi »

What is being? Is being time dependent or not?

Did the universe always be or did it have a beginning and will end? Are scientists qualified to answer this question?

Is there being if universe has gone?

Would there be being if the universe contained no living thing to be conscious of it?
devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

RJG wrote: October 13th, 2018, 9:49 am
Devans99 wrote:Everything that we know of for sure has a start; we can't observe the start of space and time directly but the fact everything else has a start is strongly suggestive that space and time will have too.
Not so. This is flawed reasoning via an appeal-to-ignorance. --- The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
You are taking an unreasonable stance:
1. Everything we know about for sure has a start
2. There is nothing we know about that does not have a start
So [1] is evidence for 'everything has a start'
And [2] is evidence against 'things exist without a start'

RJG wrote: October 13th, 2018, 9:49 am
Devans99 wrote:Energy could pre-exist the start of time / big bang. So could matter. In fact there must of been energy and matter in the pre-time base reality.
So then you do believe matter/energy (and space?) have always existed?
I'm not sure we understand enough about the big bang to be sure matter cannot be created; it may have started with pure energy which then coalesced into fundamental particles and temperature and pressure cooled. Or maybe the quarks where in there from the start; I don't believe science can give a firm answer at present.

But I think that some matter, energy and spacial dimensions have always existed in a timeless base reality. Else we could not be here.

RJG wrote: October 13th, 2018, 9:49 am
Devans99 wrote:Some of may have been used for the big bang, or matter / energy could have been created by exchanging it for 'negative gravitational energy' as the theory of Eternal Inflation speculates.
But doesn't it take 'time' (and space?) to create/exchange/transform this matter/energy?

Or can happenings actually 'occur' in a timeless state (and no place to happen)?
There is evidence that change is independent of time; the photon is timeless yet its wavelength and position change. The photon travels at the speed to light so it seems change taking place at the speed of light is independent from time (in this universe). Time slows and stops as the singularity at the centre of the Big Bang is approached, but still the 'explosion' took place, so things happening timelessly seem possible.

Base reality has spacial dimensions so there is space for things like the Big Bang to happen.
devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

Belindi wrote: October 13th, 2018, 10:00 am What is being? Is being time dependent or not?
Not sure I understand the question, but time is independent from being. Time is part of the fabric of the universe, as in space-time.
Belindi wrote: October 13th, 2018, 10:00 am
Did the universe always be or did it have a beginning and will end? Are scientists qualified to answer this question?
Things without a beginning don't exist so the universe had a beginning.
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Belindi »

Devans99 wrote:
time is independent from being.
Is time rate of change, or is time change itself?
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