Brain workings and freedom

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

I'll see you tomorrow at 8.
Why are you here now I'm having dinner? What's wrong with you?
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Present awareness »

I’m still here and it is still now! Why I’m here and why it is now, suggests they may be a reason for it, but it is just as likely there is no reason whatsoever. Sorry for ruining your dinner. I realize this line of discussion is off topic so will refrain from further comment. Do we control the brain, or does the brain control us, is a question which assumes there are two things, us and our brain. The very act of thinking, produces all forms of duality, the thinker and that which is thought about. Which comes first, the thought or the thinking about the thought? We do not have the freedom to control our thoughts but we have the freedom to allow our thoughts to arise and fall, as they always will, and observe them with a detached frame of mind.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

mild schizophrenia can be achieved simply by considering, carefully, who is thinking (and so on). But still unknown = unknown. Once you do know, prove it, and make some kind of dualism computer or energy source and become super mega rich and famous, I wish you the best. Until that point I'm going to assume you know as much as anyone else.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Present awareness »

Eduk wrote: May 26th, 2018, 2:04 pm mild schizophrenia can be achieved simply by considering, carefully, who is thinking (and so on). But still unknown = unknown. Once you do know, prove it, and make some kind of dualism computer or energy source and become super mega rich and famous, I wish you the best. Until that point I'm going to assume you know as much as anyone else.
My philosophy is not based on knowlege. I know enough to know that I don’t know anything at all. There is nothing to prove to anyone. I believe that all philosophers should base their beliefs on their own experiences because when it comes down to it, you are all you’ve got!
I may be right or I may be wrong, and it matters not, for it is simply a way of looking at things. “If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change” Wayne Dyer!
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

Yes the thing is I have my philosophy that nature appears to be consistent, is testable and considering the alternatives I act as if that is more or less correct with, of course, the understanding that new evidence my arise to disprove some of those assumptions.
You seem to think reality is whatever you make of it. Implying all kinds of things which would lead to existential issues such as I believe I can fly.
However in action we are the same, or close enough. Neither of us has stood on a high cliff and thought we could fly (for example).
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Present awareness »

Eduk wrote: May 27th, 2018, 4:41 am Yes the thing is I have my philosophy that nature appears to be consistent, is testable and considering the alternatives I act as if that is more or less correct with, of course, the understanding that new evidence my arise to disprove some of those assumptions.
You seem to think reality is whatever you make of it. Implying all kinds of things which would lead to existential issues such as I believe I can fly.
However in action we are the same, or close enough. Neither of us has stood on a high cliff and thought we could fly (for example).
Sounds like you have a solid and correct way of looking at things, Eduk! I don’t believe a person can change reality by the way they think, since reality, is as it is. Take the glass that is half full, or half empty, depending on how you think about it. The glass itself remains the same but the attitude towards the glass is different. Whether one is optimistic or pessimistic about a situation, does not change the facts, however, it has been proven in medicine for example, that the placebo effect is very real and that a persons belief that a certain drug is helping them, does in fact, help them in many cases.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

The placebo effect is small. For example no amount of placebo effect will reattach a severed arm. Actually this belief that belief has a huge role to play in health is pernicious. For example you will often hear/read people talking about 'fighting' cancer. That's wonderful but what then is the conclusion if you happen to die? That you were weak mentally? That you just didn't want it enough?
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Present awareness »

Eduk wrote: May 27th, 2018, 9:55 am The placebo effect is small. For example no amount of placebo effect will reattach a severed arm. Actually this belief that belief has a huge role to play in health is pernicious. For example you will often hear/read people talking about 'fighting' cancer. That's wonderful but what then is the conclusion if you happen to die? That you were weak mentally? That you just didn't want it enough?
The power of belief and it’s effect on brain workings and freedom, should not be underestimated. It may play a small role in medicine, but it does play a role, nevertheless. Things are as they are and no amount of wishing they were different, will change that, but ones attitude towards what happens in life, does make a difference.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Felix »

Eduk: The placebo effect is small.
Not at all, and the proof of this is that it can work in reverse, i.e., it's been found that giving people an actual drug while telling them that it's merely a placebo with no medicinal value, can dramatically reduce or even cancel out the efficacy of the drug.

See: http://www.emedexpert.com/tips/placebo.shtml
For example you will often hear/read people talking about 'fighting' cancer.
It's not just a matter of positive thinking, visualization and biofeedback techniques have been shown to bolster immune defenses - and alleviate pain.
That's wonderful but what then is the conclusion if you happen to die? That you were weak mentally? That you just didn't want it enough?
Well, one should be careful about what placebo one chooses, some have a better track record than others. :wink:
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

As I said it's pernicious. I recommend typing in placebo and science based medicine. There is an article about harnessing the power of placebo which goes into some detail.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
chewybrian
Posts: 1594
Joined: May 9th, 2018, 7:17 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Epictetus
Location: Florida man

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by chewybrian »

Eduk wrote: May 27th, 2018, 9:55 amThe placebo effect is small. For example no amount of placebo effect will reattach a severed arm. Actually this belief that belief has a huge role to play in health is pernicious. For example you will often hear/read people talking about 'fighting' cancer. That's wonderful but what then is the conclusion if you happen to die? That you were weak mentally? That you just didn't want it enough?
Present awareness wrote: May 27th, 2018, 10:20 amThe power of belief and it’s effect on brain workings and freedom, should not be underestimated. It may play a small role in medicine, but it does play a role, nevertheless. Things are as they are and no amount of wishing they were different, will change that, but ones attitude towards what happens in life, does make a difference.
I think you are both right. The placebo effect is only a tiny glimpse into something much more important. Attitude is not medicine, but in the end, it could be more helpful most of the time (when you haven't actually severed your arm).

When I read "The Enchiridion", I knew right off my life would be better as a result. I could feel anger and resentment diminishing word by word. Your interpretation of events affects their impact on you. It's not that often that so many bad things happen to us, as much as we take them as bad things when they are neutral (or might even turn out to be useful if we quit whining and pay attention). It's the wishing that allows events to be so crushing in the first place. Grounding your perceptions in reality makes progress smoother and simpler.

The 'placebo effect' is real but not material. Changing attitude can change latitude, though. Your interpretation of events is a huge deal.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

Your attitude obviously plays a massive effect in your life. Not sure it's fair to lump all attitude under placebo effect though? Interestingly the article I suggested reading talks through that exact problem about what the placebo effect actually is.
For example a patient who is receiving good medical care and trusts they are receiving good medical care is in the sweet spot. A patient who is receiving good medical care but doesn't trust that care is suboptimal. They will do fine with curing cancer or mending a broken arm but humans are complex and they may decide to stop using the good medical care in favour of a multitude of Quakery. Of course at that point they become a patient receiving poor medical care but trusting the poor medical care. This is the worst situation so far and causes people and families untold damage.
So modern medicine could make an argument that they should trick people into trusting good medical care. Which is machevallian in my book and likely to backfire.
Unknown means unknown.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Belindi »

The more is understood about how medics do their work, placebos and all, the more we the patients gain power for ourselves.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by LuckyR »

Well there is data to show that the most satisfied patients did somewhat worse than some less satisfied patients. The effect was felt to be due to docs doing what their patients wanted, instead of what the docs felt they needed.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote: May 29th, 2018, 4:43 am Well there is data to show that the most satisfied patients did somewhat worse than some less satisfied patients. The effect was felt to be due to docs doing what their patients wanted, instead of what the docs felt they needed.
Yes. I do support patient power as a general rule. But ideally the medics should take the time adequately to inform patients. There isn't the time in a 10 minute consultation to do so.
In the absence of adequate information it's perhaps the next best thing for medics to retain authoritative mystique. One bad effect of medics' conceding to what ignorant patients want is that medics prescribe unnecessary antibiotics to please them and make them go away satisfied.

The freedom that education of patients brings is costly and can be adequately provided only by a socialist state.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021