Life and Death Choices

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sunshines
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Life and Death Choices

Post by sunshines » June 4th, 2018, 11:31 am

Will people who are suffering with illness, poverty, unwanted circumstances in life choose to end their life, like be euthanized, if given a choice? How would the world be if every single person is given a choice? Should people who are suffering be give a choice?

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LuckyR
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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by LuckyR » June 5th, 2018, 2:15 am

sunshines wrote:
June 4th, 2018, 11:31 am
Will people who are suffering with illness, poverty, unwanted circumstances in life choose to end their life, like be euthanized, if given a choice? How would the world be if every single person is given a choice? Should people who are suffering be give a choice?
The reality is that they have the choice and many choose to kill themselves, albeit very, very slowly (mainly through poor life choices).
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by Alias » June 5th, 2018, 10:53 pm

sunshines wrote:
June 4th, 2018, 11:31 am
How would the world be if every single person is given a choice? Should people who are suffering be give a choice?
Seems to me like the wrong question. Even a bizarre question.
Given a choice....?

Who has the authority to give or withhold that choice from other people?
How did legislators and jurists gain that authority, that awesome power?
Do they have the qualifications to decide?
Do they have the necessary information to decide wisely?
Do they have the moral superiority to make a better decision than the person whose life they are presiding over?
Is it right that anyone should have such a power over others?

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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by kordofany » June 6th, 2018, 6:39 am

Alias wrote:
June 5th, 2018, 10:53 pm
sunshines wrote:
June 4th, 2018, 11:31 am
How would the world be if every single person is given a choice? Should people who are suffering be give a choice?
Seems to me like the wrong question. Even a bizarre question.
Given a choice....?

Who has the authority to give or withhold that choice from other people?
How did legislators and jurists gain that authority, that awesome power?
Do they have the qualifications to decide?
Do they have the necessary information to decide wisely?
Do they have the moral superiority to make a better decision than the person whose life they are presiding over?
Is it right that anyone should have such a power over others?
This liberal answer... but it is not easy like that in some special community that believe in rights of society to decide about its interests.
Freedom is an Idea in the mind... And reckless behavior is irrational.. I can live free inside the prison.
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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by -1- » June 6th, 2018, 8:07 am

What Sunshines asked is not the choice to die, but the choice to die by euthanasia. Anyone can commit suicide; but those who are privileged by poor life choices, bad health, not appealing looks, general and hopeless unhappiness, bad breath, bald patches, and unsavoury eating habits, those should be given a choice to choose between euthanasia and anesthesia.
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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by Alias » June 6th, 2018, 10:30 am

kordofany wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 6:39 am
[Seems to me like the wrong question.]
This liberal answer... but it is not easy like that in some special community that believe in rights of society to decide about its interests.
It wasn't an answer. It was a series of questions that every citizen of every society ought to be able to answer.
Okay, you have one partial answer: some societies hold the belief that the collective (or its rulers?) has the right to make life-and-death decisions over its individual members, in order to serve the community's interest.
I can see where this would mean submitting to the death penalty for crimes against the community, and to a draft in time of war to serve the community's interest by killing and dying.
I don't see how it serves any community to keep damaged and diseased individuals alive longer than those people want to live.

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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by kordofany » June 6th, 2018, 12:08 pm

Alias wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 10:30 am
kordofany wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 6:39 am
[Seems to me like the wrong question.]
This liberal answer... but it is not easy like that in some special community that believe in rights of society to decide about its interests.
It wasn't an answer. It was a series of questions that every citizen of every society ought to be able to answer.
Okay, you have one partial answer: some societies hold the belief that the collective (or its rulers?) has the right to make life-and-death decisions over its individual members, in order to serve the community's interest.
I can see where this would mean submitting to the death penalty for crimes against the community, and to a draft in time of war to serve the community's interest by killing and dying.
I don't see how it serves any community to keep damaged and diseased individuals alive longer than those people want to live.
Not necessarily material interests, there are also literary and moral concepts, including religion and the tribe. Not all societies are rational.
Freedom is an Idea in the mind... And reckless behavior is irrational.. I can live free inside the prison.
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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by The Beast » June 6th, 2018, 12:52 pm

The mechanisms of cell procreation and apoptosis are always under scrutiny. Consciousness (free Will) searches for the whys and how of existence. Take procreation: I balanced what I know with a certainty that a decision to not have children is not a natural decision made by the cells of the body. However, it is a decision made by consciousness. This decision may be firm but, the percentage varies as to a change of heart. Every day the question is asked: Do you want children? In one hundred straight days the question is asked. In day 99 abortion is halted. What is suffering? The concept is understood but, a decision to end the body might be a personal one. Therefore, it is a question of knowledge to live or not to live. For the rest of us it is a question of killing.

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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by Alias » June 6th, 2018, 4:23 pm

kordofany wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 12:08 pm
Not necessarily material interests, there are also literary and moral concepts, including religion and the tribe. Not all societies are rational.
Literary? Do you mean that folklore is so important that individuals ought to be willing to suffer years of anguish to serve it?
Do you not feel that the individual members should question that belief?
If enough individuals question, or reject such a belief, the society will change. Societies always change.

The moral concept is unclear.
Should irrational religion always take precedence over the interest of its members?

What happens in a society that has no official state religion?
Should the secular membership have freedoms from religion in a mixed population?
Or should a religious majority dictate all moral tenets for the entire population?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by ThomasHobbes » June 6th, 2018, 6:54 pm

kordofany wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 12:08 pm
Not necessarily material interests, there are also literary and moral concepts, including religion and the tribe. Not all societies are rational.
You are not even wrong. It's a mistaken position. It's pointless trying to apply "rationality" to a society since it is a collective of individuals, and incapable of the process of rationalising.
A society may never reason or apply rationality, but can only seem to respond to circumstances when a majority of individuals in that society are aware of a situation to which they tend to respond or act in similar ways.
No societies are rational.

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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by kordofany » June 7th, 2018, 1:35 am

Alias wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 4:23 pm
kordofany wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 12:08 pm
Not necessarily material interests, there are also literary and moral concepts, including religion and the tribe. Not all societies are rational.
Literary? Do you mean that folklore is so important that individuals ought to be willing to suffer years of anguish to serve it?
Do you not feel that the individual members should question that belief?
If enough individuals question, or reject such a belief, the society will change. Societies always change.

The moral concept is unclear.
Should irrational religion always take precedence over the interest of its members?

What happens in a society that has no official state religion?
Should the secular membership have freedoms from religion in a mixed population?
Or should a religious majority dictate all moral tenets for the entire population?
OK..
Let me refer to a real story that happened here in Africa.
There is a tribe where the wives of the tribal leader beat him to death when he grows old.
The Criminal Code punishes such conduct as murder.
But we can not apply the law because this is the culture of this tribe.
We are one of two options: either to apply the law and thus to destroy the culture of this tribe. or
We do not keep the law in respect of the culture of this tribe.
We choose the second option because there is a principle that says: No one has absolute truth. Everyone has his own truth.
Freedom is an Idea in the mind... And reckless behavior is irrational.. I can live free inside the prison.
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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by Alias » June 7th, 2018, 9:40 am

kordofany wrote:
June 7th, 2018, 1:35 am
OK..
Let me refer to a real story that happened here in Africa.
There is a tribe where the wives of the tribal leader beat him to death when he grows old.
The Criminal Code punishes such conduct as murder.
But we can not apply the law because this is the culture of this tribe.
We are one of two options: either to apply the law and thus to destroy the culture of this tribe. or
We do not keep the law in respect of the culture of this tribe.
We choose the second option because there is a principle that says: No one has absolute truth. Everyone has his own truth.
Who made the Criminal Code? Is this tribe a minority in a country where everyone else rejects ancient tribal practices, or did they just inherit the British colonial legal system?
I can think of two ways around the problem: 1. Give that tribe self-rule or special exemption. 2. Offer sanctuary, outside of his tribe's territory, to any old man who wants to escape his traditional fate.

But the question was whether society, or its leaders, or its laws, should have a right to force people to stay alive when they don't want to.
If the old chief wants to be beaten to death by his wives, you're already doing the right thing by leaving them alone.

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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by kordofany » June 8th, 2018, 10:00 pm

Alias wrote:
June 7th, 2018, 9:40 am
kordofany wrote:
June 7th, 2018, 1:35 am
OK..
Let me refer to a real story that happened here in Africa.
There is a tribe where the wives of the tribal leader beat him to death when he grows old.
The Criminal Code punishes such conduct as murder.
But we can not apply the law because this is the culture of this tribe.
We are one of two options: either to apply the law and thus to destroy the culture of this tribe. or
We do not keep the law in respect of the culture of this tribe.
We choose the second option because there is a principle that says: No one has absolute truth. Everyone has his own truth.
Who made the Criminal Code? Is this tribe a minority in a country where everyone else rejects ancient tribal practices, or did they just inherit the British colonial legal system?
I can think of two ways around the problem: 1. Give that tribe self-rule or special exemption. 2. Offer sanctuary, outside of his tribe's territory, to any old man who wants to escape his traditional fate.

But the question was whether society, or its leaders, or its laws, should have a right to force people to stay alive when they don't want to.
If the old chief wants to be beaten to death by his wives, you're already doing the right thing by leaving them alone.
Yes you are right
Freedom is an Idea in the mind... And reckless behavior is irrational.. I can live free inside the prison.
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Re: Life and Death Choices

Post by Felix » June 9th, 2018, 3:32 am

There is a tribe where the wives of the tribal leader beat him to death when he grows old.
Ah, the joys of polygamy!
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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