Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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LuckyR
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by LuckyR » June 19th, 2018, 7:03 pm

RJG wrote:
June 18th, 2018, 7:56 am
LuckyR wrote:So when you see a pretty assistant sawn in half in a box on stage, you think she is really sawn in half?

No. Experience trumps perception.
How can one trump the other when these words are essentially interchangeable? (...both the noun and verb variations).

Don't we experience perceptions? -- or do we experience experiences? Do we perceive experiences? -- or do we perceive perceptions?

So what makes one trump the other? Aren't they the same, but with different names?

And if these words are not the same, then let me re-ask the topic question -- Can we trust our 'experiences' to tell us what's real?
Quite easily, and mostly because you are correct that the two are a subset of one to the other. Experience is a combination of numerous perceptions plus a meta analysis of the group of perceptions. A single perception is just that (a subset). Thus it is true by definition that a subset is less than the superset. Hence why you don't believe the assistant is sawn in half and you are right. Numerous perceptions plus analysis >>> a single perception.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Mark1955 » June 20th, 2018, 4:51 pm

Eduk wrote:
June 19th, 2018, 10:32 am
Except one day the cable snaps and the bike doesn't stop. Accidents are nature's way of reminding us that cause and effect is not always as consistent as we'd like it to be.
What an odd example. It strikes me that your example is one where cause and effect is 100% consistent.
Not at the moment when I start to pull the brake lever, at that point the breakage is an unknown unknown. [alright I might have foreseen it bus I as only 11 at the time.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Mark1955 » June 20th, 2018, 5:01 pm

-1- wrote:
June 17th, 2018, 5:44 am
I read you're in Nottingham, England. Well, I can't argue with you. Your perception is yours, mine is mine. Unless you cite facts that contradict my claims, this is where the buck stops.
Well the grandson of the current British monarch recently got married in a rather large building dedicated to religious observance. His nan is considered by a quite a few people in this country to be head of the Church of England an organisation that expects about a million active participants a week. The Education Act 1944 still directs that every school will hold an act of broadly Christian worship every day. This doesn't happen much but no one is willing to try and remove the rule. There's not as many of them as there used to be but they're not exactly extinct.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Eduk » June 20th, 2018, 6:04 pm

Mark I'm possibly just not taking your comment in the spirit it was intended. If you mean unforseen things happen then I agree with you. But cause and effect requires no knowledge of the causes or the effects to be 100% consistent. So maybe I just have issue with the term cause and effect.

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by -1- » June 20th, 2018, 11:22 pm

Mark1955 wrote:
June 20th, 2018, 5:01 pm
-1- wrote:
June 17th, 2018, 5:44 am
I read you're in Nottingham, England. Well, I can't argue with you. Your perception is yours, mine is mine. Unless you cite facts that contradict my claims, this is where the buck stops.
Well the grandson of the current British monarch recently got married in a rather large building dedicated to religious observance. His nan is considered by a quite a few people in this country to be head of the Church of England an organisation that expects about a million active participants a week. The Education Act 1944 still directs that every school will hold an act of broadly Christian worship every day. This doesn't happen much but no one is willing to try and remove the rule. There's not as many of them as there used to be but they're not exactly extinct.
These, your claims, actually do not contradict my claims. What you cited are a bunch of true (?) claims, but they don't deny my claim by any force of argument.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by -1- » June 20th, 2018, 11:27 pm

Except one day the cable snaps and the bike doesn't stop. Accidents are nature's way of reminding us that cause and effect is not always as consistent as we'd like it to be.
If you expect that your not being aware of the causes is the same as the causes' not existing, then and only then you are right.

It's an absurd expectation. Why do you do it?
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Wayne92587 » June 23rd, 2018, 1:00 pm

Truth is our knowledge of Reality that we speak.
Knowledge is merely our reflection of Reality, a mirror image of Reality, the mind being our Mystic Mirror.

A mirror must be highly polished to the point of perfection in order to reflect a True Image of Reality without distortion.

All blemishes in you Mystic Mirror are no different, are the same as a reflection of the truth and be reflected, projected back into the World of Reality.

Intelligence allows one to discern the difference between the Image of Reality and the Illusion of Reality.

An Illusion of Reality is a Reality, in fact, an Illusion must be mistaken to be a Reality in order to even exist.

This misconception of the Truth is called Sin, to miss the mark.

The less intelligent a person is the more guileful they are.
One does not have to know when they are lying.

A person that is not wise, lacking intelligence is a precipitous Liar.

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Mark1955 » June 24th, 2018, 2:53 am

-1- wrote:
June 20th, 2018, 11:27 pm
Except one day the cable snaps and the bike doesn't stop. Accidents are nature's way of reminding us that cause and effect is not always as consistent as we'd like it to be.
If you expect that your not being aware of the causes is the same as the causes' not existing, then and only then you are right.

It's an absurd expectation. Why do you do it?
We all do it. This was simple example but the reality is that right now we all have unknown unknowns impacting our lives and they may be why the thing we expect to happen next doesn't.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Mark1955 » June 24th, 2018, 3:16 am

Eduk wrote:
June 20th, 2018, 6:04 pm
Mark I'm possibly just not taking your comment in the spirit it was intended. If you mean unforseen things happen then I agree with you. But cause and effect requires no knowledge of the causes or the effects to be 100% consistent. So maybe I just have issue with the term cause and effect.
We learn by observing cause and effect, we perceive that if A happens B follows and this becomes 'the truth'. Our perception of A is always incomplete, therefore we cannot truly know if A has happened or a variation of A has happened. The result of the variation of A is C. Try and get away from 'well you weren't very clever not to check your brake cable for wear' and look at the simple principle; cause - pull brake lever = effect - bike slows down; right up to he moment when you introduce the unknown, how near to breaking is the cable. Cause and effect may be theoretically 100% consistent but our knowledge of them is not therefore our practical use of the principle is always riddled with uncertainty.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Eduk » June 24th, 2018, 3:34 am

Ok well speaking personally I do expect my brake to work. But I don't claim absolute knowledge and I do recognise that brake cables sometimes fail.
Seems to me a better example would be.
I am riding my bike. I apply the brakes. The brake cable snaps. The brake pads are not applied to the wheel. The wheel is not slowed. The bike stops.

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by -1- » June 24th, 2018, 8:56 pm

Mark1955 wrote:
June 24th, 2018, 2:53 am
-1- wrote:
June 20th, 2018, 11:27 pm


If you expect that your not being aware of the causes is the same as the causes' not existing, then and only then you are right.

It's an absurd expectation. Why do you do it?
We all do it. This was simple example but the reality is that right now we all have unknown unknowns impacting our lives and they may be why the thing we expect to happen next doesn't.
You are fatally mixing up two concepts. Either you don't understand one of them, or else you just fake not understanding in order to carry on your point.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by -1- » June 24th, 2018, 8:59 pm

Eduk wrote:
June 24th, 2018, 3:34 am
Ok well speaking personally I do expect my brake to work. But I don't claim absolute knowledge and I do recognise that brake cables sometimes fail.
Seems to me a better example would be.
I am riding my bike. I apply the brakes. The brake cable snaps. The brake pads are not applied to the wheel. The wheel is not slowed. The bike stops.
Yes, this is a superior example to exemplify the point. Human knowledge here does not play any roles, and the absurdity of this example shows the failure of Mark's point.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by -1- » June 24th, 2018, 9:03 pm

By any chance: Eduk and Mark1955, are you personal acquaintances in the real world?
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Eduk » June 25th, 2018, 2:40 am

-1- unlikely. Why do you ask?

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by ogbaby_d » June 28th, 2018, 11:19 am

Referring to the original post,


I think yes, but your mind would not allow you to trust it for certain because you haven't explored whats outside of the porthole, although you are able to perceive through it.


In other words, you would think or believe it not to be real , thus it will not occur to you to be real, but for certain, it is real.

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