Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

Consciousness — AWARENESS — is truly in the eye of the beholder. I know I am conscious. But how do I know that you are?
It's an attitude which is inherent in apes and humans. Possibly can be decribed as synthetic a priori together with attitudes to space, time and causality.I say 'inherent in apes and humans' because of the presence of mirror neurons .There is much about mirror neurons via Google. They are frontal lobe neurons that allow us to develop coordinated muscle movements by imitating others, and are probably responsible also for language development through imitating others.Mirror neurons are perhaps also empathy neurons that allow us to laugh and cry with others and become sexually aroused when watching others having sex.

When we assume that others are conscious we are using our empathy ability.True, if one is going to be endlessly sceptical one may propose that mirror neurons are as demonically deceptive as any of the other modes of mapping and perceiving our environments.
Kool-aid
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Post by Kool-aid »

Brothers, we are human beings, our emotions, feelings, thoughts, desires, urges, all belong to us. Do not entrust the beauty of your intellect into the evil hands of technology.
Ugh, this reminds me of the preaching of fundamental christians. "Technology is evil"... Are you aware of the benefits technology has given you? Are you aware of that without technology you would have a life expectancy of ~25 years (18 in the bronze age), and probably suffering from extreme dental pain? Now you can live 'till you're eighty with medications for extremely many diseases (which possibly could have killed you in the past), and you complain about the evil of technology? Even simple technology is vital for survival, what would our ancestors do without tools for cutting and killing animals? And you even complain at the progress of technology. Wouldn't you want there to be found a cure of aids - or cancer? The scientists are progressing towards these goals all the time.

Your view of the future of technology is quite pessimistic. Especially when you say that machines will take over imminently. Machines do whatever we tell them to do, and nothing else. I think scientists will take at least some precautionary rules before making a potential world-dominating, manslaughtering machine from hell. Perhaps decide what it shouldn't be offensive towards? Even artificial intelligence behaves exactly as we want it to behave. It 'thinks' of what we decide it to think. I don't think we will ever give machines the 'freedom' to potentially control us. That is science fiction.
I don't think technology is the problem here...
it's the people!


Good word, mz. Unresponsible people I might add. It is what it is used for by the common people that is potentially dangerous - not what it is made for. I of course refer to the cause of global warming and other environmental issues. Not to some pshycho man killing machine.

loudthoughts, I find your posts very interesting and informative. I agree with you, and infact - life does not have one single definition, it is now a simplification of describing 'objects' of an emergent nature to some extent. Or 'subjects', if you like.
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flipmytext
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re: iR

Post by flipmytext »

One thing's for sure; if we were to implant user generated 'consciousness' into a robot of some sort, we'll never have a true answer if it's fully aware.

After reading this i-Robot & A.i. like topic, I'm very much looking forward to seeing Terminator Salvation. Kind of want to see Short Circuit again too...
sean
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Post by sean »

Well before a discussion can be reasonalby held one must first define "consciousness", which is a daunting task in and of itself.
Pricey
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Post by Pricey »

its all a matter of what concsiousness is, is consciousness the ability to take in and proccess information then spew out new in formation in responce to the original information fed in.

if so then yes,

or is it a matter of us being so called "alive", where our information processing is a matter of natural evolution. because when you break it down, all consciousness is is cause and effect, all we as humans are is complex chemcials combined to a point where we can precieve the reactions taking place and we delude our selves that we're something special, that our reactions so much more complicated and impressive than any other but its not, we are simply apply one chemical to another and get a reaction,

so on that principal even atoms and molecule are conscious on a base level, we're just a little bit more involved in our consciousness, we're just a little bit more aware, but not by much, we just run on survival instincts like and animals, just collecting more chemicals to keep the reaction going,

to keep this chemical "consciousness" ticking over,

but i digress, in short, yes machines can be conscious, for really deep down on a base atomic level, they already are
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

Machines can be conscious, if 'conscious' means able to learn from experience. But can machines be conscious of themselves as experiencing subjects?
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Pricey
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Post by Pricey »

but are they not aware of them selve, you apply informations and they proccess and react, is that not consciousness?

just as we do, even on a cellular level, there is consciousness, something activley searching out chemicals to proccess, and then break them down even further, a chemical hit a chemical and there is a reaction,which is all we a are made of,

what i'm trying to say is that to deside whether something is conscious you have to deside where consciousness begins, and as you break it down lower and lower you see consciousness begins on a atomic level, we are no different from machines in many sences, the only difference is our energy sourse is self propelled, and a lot more complex, we run off push and pull, much like the machines,

course and effect,

i'm not explaining my self very well but the ground works are some where entangled in there,

badsically what i'm saying is most people believed consciousness is a matter of choice, well i'm here to say its not, choice is an illusion, we are just random chemicals thrown together, that just keep ticking over, all we (conscious) are is just preception, same as the machine,

i feel i've said the same thing over and over, for that i apologise and i will try to explain my self further on request, but if i carry on on this tangent i shall just repeat and deliberate
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Keith Russell
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Post by Keith Russell »

I have never really understood the will to create computers that operate similarly to human beings.

I want computers to do those things that I don't do very well, like remember large quantities of data, perform complex calculations, etc.

I don't need a computer to converse with; I need a computer to balance my checkbook, keep track of my photos, and record music, etc.

(And, honestly, I'll have a lot more respect for the A.I. advocates, when a computer creates a human being that can the computer at chess. The feat wssn't that the computer beat a human, the feat was that humans created a computer that beat a human. No computer has yet come close to that!)
Pricey
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Post by Pricey »

fair enough,

i personally agree with you that we do not need to find a computer able to act like a person, for if we do, no matter how far away, it (like many things) will surley bring the desolation of the species

though it would be interesting to see if AI is truly possiable
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Gen66
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Post by Gen66 »

Alright, so guys, I'm curious, even if such computer is created, how are you personally going to test it if it's self-consciousnessed or not?
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

Maybe the way in which we test whether or not other people are conscious selves? We do it by watching their body language, what they say and how they say it. Also when we communicate we don't make our responses de novo but each person is influenced in subconscious ways by the other. The most obvious interaction of this human sort is that between mothers and their babies.I think that computers dont yet have the huge subconscious minds that humans have and which we employ in interactions with each other.I cannot imagine computers having the lateral scope of the human brain. But when they do then they will be persons too.
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Moving Finger
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Post by Moving Finger »

calenture9 wrote:The question is whether the person manipulating the symbols knows what the symbols mean. Of course, unless they speak Chinese, they don't know.
No, the question is whether the entire system (room plus rulebook plus person) understands Chinese.
calenture9 wrote:Searle makes the distinction between knowing syntax and semantics. He thinks that computers are programed to know syntax, but they have no semantic knowledge; thus, they are like the person in the room in the Chinese room experiment.
If the entire system has a knowledge only of Chinese syntax then it would not be able to provide very convincing answers to questions in Chinese. The whole point of the Chinese Room is that it DOES provide convincing answers to questions, which implies it must follow semantic as well as syntactic rules.
Belinda wrote:Maybe the way in which we test whether or not other people are conscious selves? We do it by watching their body language, what they say and how they say it. Also when we communicate we don't make our responses de novo but each person is influenced in subconscious ways by the other. The most obvious interaction of this human sort is that between mothers and their babies.
The point of the Chinese Room thought experiment, and similar arguments, is that it may be possible to simulate things like consciousness and understanding without actually possessing consciousness and understanding. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, does that mean it is a duck?
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Gen66
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Post by Gen66 »

Belinda wrote:Maybe the way in which we test whether or not other people are conscious selves? We do it by watching their body language, what they say and how they say it. Also when we communicate we don't make our responses de novo but each person is influenced in subconscious ways by the other. The most obvious interaction of this human sort is that between mothers and their babies.I think that computers dont yet have the huge subconscious minds that humans have and which we employ in interactions with each other.I cannot imagine computers having the lateral scope of the human brain. But when they do then they will be persons too.
Indeed, dear, but this computer won't have a body and feelings, imagine our brain put in a box and connected to a display that shows letters, this is how it's going to communicate, so when you create such a complex software, let's say to have self-consciousness, it will be the same, you will have a keyboard and a monitor to communicate with it,now is your turn, how exactly are you going to test it to see if it has self-consciousness or it's not a very very complex program with a huge data base? How are you going to test the human brain I described above? Obviously you can only ask questions and get answers, the test should be questions and answers, what are going to be these questions? Actually it seems very hard to test such a thing.
After all we won't have something biological here, that can have feelings, it's a computer right? Mechanical...
Moving Finger
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Post by Moving Finger »

Gen66 - why would it necessarily not have feelings?
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Gen66
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Post by Gen66 »

Moving Finger wrote:Gen66 - why would it necessarily not have feelings?
Hi, because feelings are something unique for a biological organism, they require biological tools to be experienced and to be created, we are talking about something mechanical here, you can only program it to express feelings with words under certain conditions, like if you increase the its voltage , it can say - oh , it hurts. :lol: That's far from real feelings though....
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