Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Jan Sand wrote:Chaos is essentially a mental perception of total disorder. If there is order of any kind, how can there be chaos?
Animals who can learn from experience are busy making order out of chaos. The question is therefore whether or not order is discovered or invented.

People who believe in cosmic benevolence would, if they thought about the matter, say that order is discovered not invented.
Jan Sand
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand »

I concur that order is discovered and by that chaos is a mental state of confusion, not a lack of natural pattern.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Perhaps "apparent chaos" would be preferable, given that complexity can appear chaotic, eg. a pop fan's perception of modern jazz.
Namelesss
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Namelesss »

Can a man-made computer become conscious?
Consciousness is not quantified, a bit doled out here, some there, in bits and crackers!
(T)Here exists One (unchanging, ALL inclusive) Universal Consciousness!
There is no point in the Universe, ever, that is not Consciousness; in the space where your toaster sits, in a rock, in the sun, in space, in your eye...
So, Consciousness already exists in that space where you build your toaster! Does that make the 'toaster' Conscious, or like everything else, exist within Consciousness? *__-
Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Jan Sand wrote:I concur that order is discovered and by that chaos is a mental state of confusion, not a lack of natural pattern.
As a devotee of Spinoza I agree.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Sy Borg »

Belindi wrote:
Jan Sand wrote:I concur that order is discovered and by that chaos is a mental state of confusion, not a lack of natural pattern.
As a devotee of Spinoza I agree.
Chaos is relative; systems may be more or less ordered, ie. less or more chaotic.
Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Greta wrote:
Chaos is relative; systems may be more or less ordered, ie. less or more chaotic.

This I had not thought of at all. I'd better sleep on it.
Wayne92587
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Wayne92587 »

Good answer Greta, Weather is a good example of a system of Chaos.

System; a group of group of interacting elements forming a complex whole.
a condition of harmonious orderly interaction.

-- Updated November 21st, 2017, 12:04 pm to add the following --

Conscious itself is a creation; consciousness having the ability to bring the chaos to order, to separated the light from Darkness.

Though I walk through the valley and shadow of darkness, death, I shall fear not the Evil of Illusion, for thou art with me.

Though I walk through the circle of chaos I fear not the Evil of Illusion, for thou, "Consciousness", is with me.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand »

My understanding of chaos is a total lack of discernible pattern. Since weather can be predicted to a reasonable extent It does not seem chaotic to me.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Sy Borg »

Jan Sand wrote:My understanding of chaos is a total lack of discernible pattern. Since weather can be predicted to a reasonable extent It does not seem chaotic to me.
Jan, the qualifier you used, "reasonable extent", actually answers your question. Why can weather be predicted to a reasonable extent rather than precisely? Why are forecasts not provided for years in advance? Chaos. This link explains it better than I can: http://www.stsci.edu/~lbradley/seminar/butterfly.html
Wayne92587
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Wayne92587 »

From Wikipedia;

In common usage, "chaos" means "a state of disorder".[15] However, in chaos theory, the term is defined more precisely. Although no universally accepted mathematical definition of chaos exists.

Chaotic behavior exists in many natural systems, such as weather and climate.[8][9] It also occurs spontaneously in some systems with artificial components, such as road traffic.[10] This behavior can be studied through analysis of a chaotic mathematical model, or through analytical techniques such as recurrence plots and Poincaré maps. Chaos theory has applications in several disciplines, including meteorology, anthropology,[11][12] sociology, physics,[13] environmental science, computer science, engineering, economics, biology, ecology, and philosophy. The theory formed the basis for such fields of study as complex dynamical systems, edge of chaos theory, and self-assembly processes.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Sy Borg »

Wayne92587 wrote:System; a group of group of interacting elements forming a complex whole.
a condition of harmonious orderly interaction.

Conscious itself is a creation; consciousness having the ability to bring the chaos to order, to separated the light from Darkness.

Though I walk through the valley and shadow of darkness, death, I shall fear not the Evil of Illusion, for thou art with me.

Though I walk through the circle of chaos I fear not the Evil of Illusion, for thou, "Consciousness", is with me.
Mind you, if we were not conscious then we would fear evil even less :)

Life and consciousness concentrate order in a local area, namely one's body and territory, but at the expense of order outside of those bounds. This can be thought of in terms of entropy, where life reduces the entropy impacting itself by using the energy of its surrounds, thus inflicting more entropy up on that environment. The best example is eating, which is jolly lovely for predators but dramatically entropic for prey.

The fears about AI of Hawking and co are based on the fear that if machines become conscious, then they will inflict entropy and chaos on us at so as to refine their own order. This would depend on identification - whether a sentient AI sees humanity as part of its circle of care.
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Atreyu
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Atreyu »

This thread has convinced me we need another thread titled "Why do many people so desperately want to believe that machines could become something fundamentally different?" or perhaps "Why, in various forms throughout the ages, do people seem to so desperately want to believe in magic?"

Nothing would be more "magical" than a machine transforming itself into a conscious entity....
Jan Sand
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand »

I am familiar with the butterfly effect which indicates that predictability is inherently flawed in all disciplines dealing with reality since, as quantum theory indicates, unpredictability infects everything to a degree, some things more than others. Mathematics indicates perfect predictability but, as Einstein famously remarked, "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." My understanding of chaos is that it indicates total disorder. If weather is in any way predictable, and our current life experiences its predictability every day, then it is not in total disorder.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Sy Borg »

Atreyu wrote:Nothing would be more "magical" than a machine transforming itself into a conscious entity....
Only the emergence of life, multicelluarilty and humanity were more "magical".

-- Updated 22 Nov 2017, 00:50 to add the following --
Jan Sand wrote:My understanding of chaos is that it indicates total disorder. If weather is in any way predictable, and our current life experiences its predictability every day, then it is not in total disorder.
Jan, I'm afraid you will need to take this up with the boffins; I'm just passing on information.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chaos/
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