Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Chili
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Chili »

Tamminen wrote: You cannot look at the situation from the standpoint of the copies. The only way is to imagine your own future as you are living before the copying.
It seems to me that the "me" before copying has many beliefs. These beliefs appear to be causing emotional problems for the individual. I'm not sure if they pose any philosophical or scientific problems for anyone.
Tamminen
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Tamminen »

Chili wrote:It seems to me that the "me" before copying has many beliefs. These beliefs appear to be causing emotional problems for the individual. I'm not sure if they pose any philosophical or scientific problems for anyone.
You are right. The question is as absurd as the question if a man-made computer can become conscious, only a bit more interesting. Nothing to do with emotions, though.
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Present awareness
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Present awareness »

Steve3007 wrote:Tamminen:
There surely can be many subjects at one time, but I am only one of them at this time or any other time.
It's interesting to see how long this conversation can keep going.

Suppose a copy of you was made just now and placed in the house across the street. If I now ask you: "Which one is you? Which one is Tamminen?" you will presumably say "I am. Obviously. There can only be one of me. The other one is just a copy."

Then I run across the street and ask the copy the same question. What do you think the copy will say? Who is right?
Is it possible to divide into two, something which may not be divided? For example, there is only ONE consciousness at any given time and right now, it is your consciousness. The entire universe is dependent on your consciousness, because prior to your birth, billions of years went by and there wasnt any universe at all, until you were born. It is similar to trying to divide the present moment into past, present and future. No such division exists, for it is always the present moment.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Sy Borg »

Present awareness wrote:
Steve3007 wrote:Is it possible to divide into two, something which may not be divided? For example, there is only ONE consciousness at any given time and right now, it is your consciousness. The entire universe is dependent on your consciousness, because prior to your birth, billions of years went by and there wasnt any universe at all, until you were born. It is similar to trying to divide the present moment into past, present and future. No such division exists, for it is always the present moment.
Isn't consciousness divisible by time? For instance, now my mind is full of these abstractions but when I was walking the dog through the bush earlier on I phased in and out between the dog, the bushland and foreshores, and thinking about the arrangement for a new song we're working on. Later I was fully focused on trying to dig weeds from hard, dry earth without breaking their roots.

So consciousness can be divided not only by its objects (be it sensory info or abstractions) but also by its nature and relative intensity, eg. deep sleep, REM sleep, dozing, awake but sleepy, acting automatically, focused attention, etc.

So, as Atreyu is fond of pointing out, we humans are actually a lot less often conscious than we suppose, experiencing periods of shifting awareness. Even if AI lacks qualia, if it is even capable of mimicking human focused attention it will be intimidating. Machines won't drift in and out with waves of focused attention rising and falling in an ocean of reflexes. Rather, it will retain a constant strong awareness, albeit less fluid than ours, literally and probably metaphorically.
Tamminen
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Tamminen »

Steve3007 wrote:Seriously though, it would be interesting if at some point one of us said "ah! yes! now I get it!" and the matter was resolved. I've never known that to happen in a philosophy discussion. But I guess there's always a first time.
I agree. We can never agree on anything in a philosophy discussion.
Me: But if you took the trouble to imagine yourself continuing your life as two copies of yourself at the same time, you surely would find it absurd.

Steve: Yes. But you don't do that. The embryo that splits to form identical twins doesn't do that either.
Do what? It is a question of method, of how you can solve the problem. Your method is external and cannot lead to a satisfactory solution precisely because of the objective point of view. The only way, as I said, is to imagine your own concrete future in this thought experiment. I think Togo1 is on the right track.
Steve3007
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Steve3007 »

Tamminen:
Your method is external and cannot lead to a satisfactory solution precisely because of the objective point of view.
Yes, this is probably the key to our differences. I suspect it's why you've mentioned Descartes' cogito ergo sum several times. Yes, if you only ever consider consciousness from inside itself I accept that you cannot imagine it splitting into two. Just as Descartes' method can only ever demonstrate the existence of one single conscious entity in the entire universe.

But, in reality, we don't do that do we? We don't just consider consciousness from the inside. We don't stick with Descartes' single mind. We're perfectly happy to accept the existence of other conscious beings as a fact, based on our external observations of them. And if we can do that, we can see, from the outside, how they could, in principle, split in two. We can know that, from each of their points of view, they haven't split in two. We can know that each of them regards themselves as the one. But we can see from the outside what has happened.
Tamminen
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Tamminen »

Steve3007 wrote:Tamminen:
Your method is external and cannot lead to a satisfactory solution precisely because of the objective point of view.
Yes, this is probably the key to our differences. I suspect it's why you've mentioned Descartes' cogito ergo sum several times. Yes, if you only ever consider consciousness from inside itself I accept that you cannot imagine it splitting into two. Just as Descartes' method can only ever demonstrate the existence of one single conscious entity in the entire universe.

But, in reality, we don't do that do we? We don't just consider consciousness from the inside. We don't stick with Descartes' single mind. We're perfectly happy to accept the existence of other conscious beings as a fact, based on our external observations of them. And if we can do that, we can see, from the outside, how they could, in principle, split in two. We can know that, from each of their points of view, they haven't split in two. We can know that each of them regards themselves as the one. But we can see from the outside what has happened.
Great! And that is why I was surprised when I said as an obvious fact that I cannot be in two places at the same time, and you replied "Why not?". Because the other me is not me from my subjective point of view. The situation is not symmetric. Are we now on the same page?

There is still the question: which one am I? There is no physical reason for either.
Steve3007
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Steve3007 »

Tamminen:
Are we now on the same page?
Possibly not yet. Although maybe we're now at least in the same book.
The situation is not symmetric.
I disagree. The situation is symmetrical. Tamminen 1 is not Tamminen from the subjective point of view of Tamminen 2. Tamminen 2 is not Tamminen from the subjective point of view of Tamminen 1.
There is still the question: which one am I? There is no physical reason for either.
That's why we're not yet on the same page. This is only a meaningful question from the internal point of view of each of the two Tamminens seperately. Two internal points of view. Two different answers.
Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Like one can use a hand tool, or a motor car, to augment one's power to influence events so one could, if the bio- technology existed feel that another person was a tool that's to say an extension of oneself.

Obviously some individuals use other individuals as their tools. However this cannot yet be done physiologically but can be done and is done by physical and mental enslavement. The subjective perspective and the subjective power is precious if freedom is to be our watchword.
Steve3007
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Steve3007 »

Some good thoughts about tools, human and artificial, there Belindi. I feel sure you must have been smiling slightly when writing them. Or maybe that's just my childish sense of humour.

I guess Kant's categorical imperative is relevant. (And, as philosophers, we're contractually obliged to mention Kant at least once every 10 posts.)
Tamminen
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Tamminen »

Steve3007 wrote:
The situation is not symmetric.
I disagree. The situation is symmetrical. Tamminen 1 is not Tamminen from the subjective point of view of Tamminen 2. Tamminen 2 is not Tamminen from the subjective point of view of Tamminen 1.
There is still the question: which one am I? There is no physical reason for either.
That's why we're not yet on the same page. This is only a meaningful question from the internal point of view of each of the two Tamminens seperately. Two internal points of view. Two different answers.
I am only one Tamminen now and will be the same one Tamminen after copying. The other Tamminen will be a foreigner for me after copying. This is the internal point of view you almost found. I only have one route to the future. And by an irrational choice or something like that I will be in London or in Paris, not both. And once the choice has been made, I cannot cancel it and go to the other city instead, except as a tourist.

You look at the situation after copying, I look at it before copying, and it looks totally different from there. What looks symmetrical from your perspective, looks asymmetrical from my perspective.
Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Steve wrote:
I guess Kant's categorical imperative is relevant.
To will that what I will for myself applies to everybody else. I wish to be free of enslavement by others, to any degree. I would wish all other humans to be free of any degree of enslavement.

If an AI machine felt itself to be a person then the machine would be subject to the universalisability principle too. It's a terrible word, I am sorry but it's not my fault. The AI machine which has the subjectivity function, inherits the responsibility of personal freedom. Just as it's humans' duty to humanity and to the rest of creation to enable and increase responsibility and freedom in the young of our species, so it's our duty to enable and increase responsibility and freedom in the subjective AI machine.

Unless makers of subjectivity-enabled AI machines do enable and increase responsibility and freedom in and among AI machines, it is immoral to make such machines. Like it's immoral to procreate offspring and not look after their welfare.

If it were possible for the same biological or machine- made subjective person to be the subject of('in') more than one body proper that person of multiple bodies would be duty bound to observe the principle of universalisability.

The principle of universalisability fits with the necessity for subjects of experience.

Biological subjects of experience are consciously aware, as when we are awake, and getting information from the world outside our memories. Subjects of experience are also sentient, like for instance when we are not anaesthetised to sensations, or for instance when our neural pathways are in good working order. However I do not know what would be the machine equivalent of an anaesthetic, or of neural pathways. I understand that AI machines do get their information from both memory and the outside information environment. I don't think that a philosopher needs to know how the machines are constructed so to do.
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Present awareness
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Present awareness »

Greta wrote:
Present awareness wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
Isn't consciousness divisible by time? For instance, now my mind is full of these abstractions but when I was walking the dog through the bush earlier on I phased in and out between the dog, the bushland and foreshores, and thinking about the arrangement for a new song we're working on. Later I was fully focused on trying to dig weeds from hard, dry earth without breaking their roots.

So consciousness can be divided not only by its objects (be it sensory info or abstractions) but also by its nature and relative intensity, eg. deep sleep, REM sleep, dozing, awake but sleepy, acting automatically, focused attention, etc.

So, as Atreyu is fond of pointing out, we humans are actually a lot less often conscious than we suppose, experiencing periods of shifting awareness. Even if AI lacks qualia, if it is even capable of mimicking human focused attention it will be intimidating. Machines won't drift in and out with waves of focused attention rising and falling in an ocean of reflexes. Rather, it will retain a constant strong awareness, albeit less fluid than ours, literally and probably metaphorically.
I believe that our concept of time, is only possible by our conscious awareness of our memories. No memory, no time.

Our entire self image is based on memory. We remember experiences, images, feelings etc. , which become part of our concept of whom we are. No memory, no self. The reason the universe did not exist for us personally, prior to our birth is because we don’t remember it. Countless billions of years went by, if you believe in the concept of time. However, no time at all went by in reality because time is just a human concept.

The universe is not possible without conscious awareness and conscious awareness is only experienced one person at a time. As pointed out earlier, it is not possible to split consciousness into two and experience two consciousness at the same time.

Everything you know and everything you believe, is a direct result of your conscious awareness. Levels of awareness change and we are not conscious of everything at the same time. There is a sweet spot of conscious awareness, with everything else being filtered out as unimportant.

Could it be said that the water flowing in a river “remembers” where the ocean is? The water has no choice but to follow the river channel. Same with a computer. The electricity has no choice but to follow the circuit’s of the processor. I turn on a switch and electricity flows to my kitchen light, every time. A computer is not much more then a complex series of switches, which responds to a program.
A clever human can mimic awareness in a computer with a brilliant program, but the electricity which runs the computer only flows within the confines of the program. Is this electricity conscious of it's flow? I think not.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Togo1
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Togo1 »

Chili wrote:
Togo1 wrote:Yes, it is a statement about subjective experience. None of the individuals (copies) in the example experience life in two places at the same time.
How does this address the issue or conundrum which Tamminem is bringing up?
Because the subjective experience 'now' is still different. There is no point at which two entities have the same subjective experience. Before the copying event there was only one, and after the copying event their experience has diverged, since they are occupying different space.

Have I missed where the conundrum is supposed to be?
Togo1 wrote:
Chili wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


That the concept of 'self' is not properly supported by an extreme reductionist viewpoint is a bug in that viewpoint, not a feature. It clashes with a small subset of the available evidence.
Intriguing that you would say there is objective "evidence" of subjectivity.
Not really. There's some wriggle room depending on how you define 'evidence', but in the normal scientific practice, the most successful models of human behaviour involve subjective intentionality. Or to put it another way, the models that assume behaviour is intentional along the lines of subject reports of conscious consideration, are good predictors of human behaviour. They're also increasingly winning out as predictors of animal behaviour. Obviously we can argue about what constitutes evidence, proof and support, but in terms of the science, those are the results we have.
Chili wrote:If you start from outside a strictly empirical place, don't be surprised if you find lots of non-empirical conclusions e.g. consciousness, minds, selves.
Nothing non-emperical about conscious neural processing. It's measureable, predictable and consumes energy, to a close correspondance with subject reports of subjective conscious experience.

You're aware that determinism can't be demonstrated emperically?
Steve3007
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Steve3007 »

Tamminen:
You look at the situation after copying, I look at it before copying, and it looks totally different from there. What looks symmetrical from your perspective, looks asymmetrical from my perspective.
The key difference between us is that I'm looking at the situation from outside and you're looking at it from inside. You have mentioned Descartes in seemingly trying to say that this inside perspective is the only possible one. I disagree. As I've said, I think that conscious minds other than my own exist. Don't you? If you do, can you imagine objectively observing this experimental process happening to me instead?

Suppose you make a copy of me and take it across the street. So there's Steve 1 and Steve 2. You ask us both "which is the real Steve" and they both say "me".

-- Updated Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:20 pm to add the following --

Belindi:
...If an AI machine felt itself to be a person then the machine would be subject to the universalisability principle too. It's a terrible word, I am sorry but it's not my fault. The AI machine which has the subjectivity function, inherits the responsibility of personal freedom. Just as it's humans' duty to humanity and to the rest of creation to enable and increase responsibility and freedom in the young of our species, so it's our duty to enable and increase responsibility and freedom in the subjective AI machine....
This is the interesting subject of the ethical treatment of artifcial life (if such a thing could ever exist) and the light that it sheds on our treatment of real living things.

You've suggested that if an AI machine felt itself to be a person then we should, following Kant, treat it as an end in itself and not just a means to an end; not just a tool. Obviously one of the problems with that is determining if that self-declaration should be taken seriously. Clearly one could write a computer program which displays the message "I am a person. I demand my rights!" or do various other more sophisticated things. Conversely, if a living thing is incapable of declaring itself a "person" (i.e. a thing which deserves to be treated as an end in itself) that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't one, as people in comas will be relieved to hear.

It also raises the old issue of how we decide which non-human animals to treat as ends and which we can allow ourselves to treats as means. Is the decision essentially arbitrary? Is it, when all's said and done, based simply on our personal feelings about different kinds of animals? Do we only treat humans as ends (rather than means) because we happen to be human ourselves?
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