Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2926  Postby Greta » November 11th, 2017, 1:02 am

Simulating the information processing in what?
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?



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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2927  Postby Belindi » November 11th, 2017, 7:10 am

Greta wrote:
Belindi wrote:Greta wrote:


(Nested quote removed.)

Yes, the quality of the information is also apparently critical, as per the above Koch quote. I thought he put it extremely well:

(Nested quote removed.)



Did you mean the below Koch quote? I.e. the "in 100 years---" quote? That does describe it graphically, absence of qualia. If you meant the above Koch quote "perhaps if sufficient informational "mass" is present in a system, ie. amount of information and the degree to which it is interconnected, then it will naturally become what we think of as conscious - that consciousness will "ignite"? " then perhaps degree to which the information bits are connected amounts qualia. This I believe if in addition I include that mind is the subjective perception of matter

(Nested quote removed.)


The idea seems that if you want machines to "wake up" then, like any other conscious entity, they must learn via experience in the physical world rather than be screen-based. That makes sense to me. The physical world has stakes, and stakes are what makes conscious awareness advantageous. It must evolve its own programming rather than be a programmed copy.


We know too well and how detrimental it is to our common humanity and to other species that biological materials can turn into computing machines. What is this thing that , when not subtracted from a human being makes him more than a machine more than a sort of clever zombie? ***The religious call it soul. I want to describe 'soul' in scientific language without deeming that individual souls are immortal.
perhaps "if sufficient informational "mass" is present in a system, ie. amount of information and the degree to which it is interconnected, then it will naturally become what we think of as conscious - that consciousness will "ignite"?"
I think that souls, for want of a better word, are like "amount of information and the degree to which it is interconnected," taken to the level of continuous and unprecedented change which implicates the truly intelligent machine in creativity enabling it to deal with absolutely unique events. The latter is what biological individuals have to do in order to exist.


Belindi wrote:And also, creativity and subjective qualia are twinned.

Does subjective qualia equal self awareness?


I believe so. We feel self awareness. Don't you agree that Self awareness is more than personal identity, it's a subjective feeling?

PS *** Philip Pullman's trilogy "His Dark Materials" portrays separable souls as visible animal entities that he calls "daemons". And there are emissaries of evil "authority" who cruelly cut away their daemons from captured children.

PPS Apologies for the poor editing. I did try but am stymied.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2928  Postby JamesOfSeattle » November 11th, 2017, 2:18 pm

Greta wrote:Simulating the information processing in what?

I'm pretty sure Koch is still a proponent of the Integrated Information Theory of consciousness, which states pretty much that consciousness is integrated information. It seems to me that the integration of information and the simulation of the integration of information will give you the same thing, integrated information.

*
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2929  Postby Greta » November 11th, 2017, 5:11 pm

Belindi wrote:And also, creativity and subjective qualia are twinned.

Does subjective qualia equal self awareness?[/quote]

I believe so. We feel self awareness. Don't you agree that Self awareness is more than personal identity, it's a subjective feeling?

PS *** Philip Pullman's trilogy "His Dark Materials" portrays separable souls as visible animal entities that he calls "daemons". And there are emissaries of evil "authority" who cruelly cut away their daemons from captured children.[/quote]
While they were supposed to represent the simpler, animal aspect of us, I admit to seeing the daemons in a simpler way, seeming more akin to devoted pets with English speaking skills - our beloved animal offsiders, best pals and constant shadows - which could be thought of as roughly the same thing.

Thing is, our consciousness is so inconsistent. During deep focus we are not much more present than when asleep (hence a similar shock response when suddenly disturbed). Further, while self awareness is posited as a human difference, it seems to me that that state is less sophisticated and potent than deep absorption where the self is dormant.

-- Updated 11 Nov 2017, 16:20 to add the following --

JamesOfSeattle wrote:
Greta wrote:Simulating the information processing in what?

I'm pretty sure Koch is still a proponent of the Integrated Information Theory of consciousness, which states pretty much that consciousness is integrated information. It seems to me that the integration of information and the simulation of the integration of information will give you the same thing, integrated information.
*

Yes, it's still IIT. It's the approach where he has issues. Still, consider the logistics of simulating consciousness to the point of experience. Let's say researchers find a way of measuring every bit of quantum information in your brain and aim to reproduce. They will produce what is effectively a still image of a movie, since your consciousness involves every single brain state in every Plank moment from cradle (or before) to now. Kock's idea is to let an intelligent machine build up its own repository of experiences.

Consider a robot learning a musical instrument. You can program it to simply play all the notes or whatever song, or you can program it to gradually learn as we do in real life in real time. Kochk, IMO logically, sees physicality as a critical shaping component of consciousness as we know it.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2930  Postby Belindi » November 12th, 2017, 6:07 am

Greta wrote:

While they were supposed to represent the simpler, animal aspect of us, I admit to seeing the daemons in a simpler way, seeming more akin to devoted pets with English speaking skills - our beloved animal offsiders, best pals and constant shadows - which could be thought of as roughly the same thing.


Greta refers to the daemons in His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman. If by "the same thing" you mean the simpler, animal aspect of us" I agree. The simpler animal aspect of us is against authority i.e. the old Authority of the supernatural as opposed to the good physical Earth where we live.

Thing is, our consciousness is so inconsistent. During deep focus we are not much more present than when asleep (hence a similar shock response when suddenly disturbed). Further, while self awareness is posited as a human difference, it seems to me that that state is less sophisticated and potent than deep absorption where the self is dormant.


I presumed that by consciousness you referred to focused waking awareness. I don't think that awareness that one is a self is a state of consciousness. More one of the normal components of human consciousness. You must know from your own experience that focused waking awareness with disappeared self-awareness is beneficial for individual, society, and natural environment?
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2931  Postby Greta » November 13th, 2017, 12:35 am

Belindi wrote:The simpler animal aspect of us is against authority i.e. the old Authority of the supernatural as opposed to the good physical Earth where we live.

Yes, when systems become corrupted at some point backward steps must be taken for progression to be fruitful.

Belindi wrote:
Thing is, our consciousness is so inconsistent. During deep focus we are not much more present than when asleep (hence a similar shock response when suddenly disturbed). Further, while self awareness is posited as a human difference, it seems to me that that state is less sophisticated and potent than deep absorption where the self is dormant.


I presumed that by consciousness you referred to focused waking awareness. I don't think that awareness that one is a self is a state of consciousness. More one of the normal components of human consciousness. You must know from your own experience that focused waking awareness with disappeared self-awareness is beneficial for individual, society, and natural environment?

So is there an advantage in giving machines a sense of self (if we have a choice)?
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2932  Postby Belindi » November 13th, 2017, 10:32 am

Greta wrote:

So is there an advantage in giving machines a sense of self (if we have a choice)?


IMO that would be very dangerous unless and until (if such is at all possible)the machines can not only empathise but much more importantly, sympathise.What do you think?
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2933  Postby Atreyu » November 13th, 2017, 8:24 pm

1. If you take away consciousness from a conscious entity, you get a machine.

2. If you put consciousness into a machine, you get a conscious entity.

We can all imagine #1 happening. In fact, it does. People can become unconscious. They can die. They can fall asleep. They can lose their minds and go crazy. They can get lost in thought, in reveries. They can daydream. They can become hypnotized. #1 is a fact of life.

How about #2?
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2934  Postby Chili » November 13th, 2017, 11:00 pm

If consciousness is just this locked-in passive observer, it doesn't do anything, and so nobody outside even knows if its there. Add it or subtract it, and the behaviors will be the same. wikipedia > Locked-in_syndrome
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2935  Postby Greta » November 13th, 2017, 11:19 pm

Belindi wrote:Greta wrote:

So is there an advantage in giving machines a sense of self (if we have a choice)?


IMO that would be very dangerous unless and until (if such is at all possible)the machines can not only empathise but much more importantly, sympathise.What do you think?

I personally prefer my appliances mindless :) With age I have come to more appreciate space and how it makes existence possible. If we were surrounded by things as conscious as ourselves - not just the people but other animals and things - life would be tumult with the intensity of competition and the system of life would not be sustainable for many.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2936  Postby Belindi » November 14th, 2017, 6:46 am

Greta wrote:

I personally prefer my appliances mindless :)


Is the government of Australia a mindless appliance? The governments of the USA and UK are relatively mindless appliances. The thing is to keep mindless appliances from exerting power.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2937  Postby Wayne92587 » November 14th, 2017, 1:49 pm

Only Man has the potential of becoming conscious.

Not all of mankind is conscious;

Consciousness is based upon priory knowledge, which of course, is the knowledge of Realities that can not be experienced.

At best Computer consciousness would merely be an awareness of the Material, and possibly of Self, Awareness not being a mental state that allows a computer to be conscious, to have the Priory knowledge of a Reality that has no ass.

Existence prior to the beginning of the Evolutionary Process, before the Creation of the Heavens and the Earth, the Universe, the Reality of Everything that exists in the material sense of the World, the only thing in existence was a substance that had no mass, a Hot Soup, emptiness, the Sky, a great void, the Either, there being only Darkness upon the Deep; the light yet to be separated from the darkness, the Day from the Night.

The Sun is the Light unto the World, the World of Reality as seen in the Light of Day,

In the Beginning Only Singularity existed; existing as a minute particle and as an Infinite State of singularity, in which nothing was readily apparent, nothing was measurable as to speed and location in Space-Time which was yet to exist,

No differentiated Time, Space or Motion.

The metamorphic change of a Singularity of Zero-0 because of a Bump in the Night being such that a Singularity of Zero-0 was reborn, was Transfigured, converted into, became the First in a Series, the First Random Singularity of Zero-0 to attain a relative, numerical, Value of One-1.

Uncaused, being an affect, a Singularity of Zero-0 became known as the Reality of First Cause.

In the State of Singularity; the motion of a singularity is meaningless, meaning that a Singularity alone in the Emptiness of the Great Void existed as an Individuality, as a Singular Particle having no relative, numerical value, having numerical value of Zero-0, Nada, Zip, Zilch, Nothing, existed as an Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularity of Zero-0.

In the beginning before the start of the Evolutionary Process, Nothing, the whole of existence, as a State of Singularity or any Random Singularity of Zero-0, of untold Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularities, primary particles, that make up a State of Singularity.

The State of Singularity being a Transcendental (Metaphysical) Fully Random State of Singularity (which due to the lack of motion of the individual Singular Particles has no relative, numerical, value, having numerical value of Zero-0, Nada, Zip, Zilch, Nothing.

Existence within the State of Singularity was nothing more that untold quantity of Individual Singularities of Zero-0, having no mass has no angular momentum, no velocity of Speed and direction.

Without displacement results in nothing being countable, nothing being readily apparent resulting only the existence of a State of Singularity, Nothingness, there being only Darkness upon the Deep.

-- Updated November 15th, 2017, 11:33 am to add the following --

If you take away consciousness from a conscious entity, you get a machine.
If you put consciousness into a machine, you get a conscious entity.



At best Computer consciousness would merely be an awareness of the Material, and possibly of Self, Awareness not being a mental state that allows a computer to be conscious, to have the Priory knowledge of a Reality that has no mass.

Only Man has the potential of becoming conscious.

Not all of mankind is conscious;

Consciousness is based upon priory knowledge, which of course, is the knowledge of Realities that can not be experienced.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2938  Postby Jan Sand » Yesterday, 11:39 am

At the moment there does not seem to be a clear understanding of consciousness. I am not a neurologist or a scientist but I am aware of myself and have agendas to accomplish - whatever it needs to be alive and can only describe my understanding of myself. I seem to be a fairly normal human animal.


My nervous system, as with most people, is equipped with various sensing equipment and signals from this is sent as nerve impulses to my brain which analyses these signals with several specialized sections so that the pattern of these signals are arranged for the brain to gain a knowledge of the environment and react properly to keep the whole system functioning.


Through successful evolution these patterns have arrangements that have been successful in the past so they are pre-established into standard templates that have been successful and form a tool kit that closely resembles that in other humans to keep us all in good condition, The brain, therefore, does not know what might be called outside reality. It only knows the incoming signals and must have a genetic template to guide it in making useful patterns of the incoming signals. The rear of the brain is devoted to responding to the signals from the retina and fitting them with the templates to gain awareness of the outside world. Therefore, we do not see with our eyes, we see with our brain which constructs the images we label reality out of the visual impulses. This is why people actually see visions and hypnotic suggestions because what we see is not the presumed images from the eyes but the constructions the brain fabricates out of input signals plus distortions from other brain inputs.


Even in normal waking vision there are places where this visual construction has no input material from the outside so it fills in the blanks with probable material from memories of previous input. Beyond that, our nervous system is oriented towards survival so huge amounts of signal input are rejected as irrelevant for this inner fabrication of reality.


The massive part of the brain contains the huge store of memory of our entire life and this store is arranged out of genetic templates and personal experiences along with valuations of the materials from emotional input and various associational necessities which is on call at the request of what we label as the consciousness.


So it seems to me that the bulk of the brain creates a simulation of reality out of its sense input and, since much of the sense input is irrelevant to survival and reproduction the bulk of that input is rejected and the reality it manufactures is highly simplified. It updates that reality moment to moment and within that artificial construct is has an instrument to react to that dynamic creation out of experience and instinct and body demands and this is what we call consciousness. There is a steady interplay of demands and replies of information between the bulk of the brain structure and the small instrument which is the consciousness so that the consciousness is not necessarily aware of the total brain content of memories and routines but those parts which are required are supplied moment to moment as the consciousness needs them.


The big difference between data stored in a computer and the information stored in the brain is that computer data is static and brain information is alive in living cells and each pattern of information in a living brain retains some of the characteristics of a living creature. In a brain, the information in cells is a community of itself and can think in its own system of intellect. This is the thinking part of what Freud indicated as the subconscious. It probably is more intelligent than the consciousness and might form much of the creative mechanisms of the mind where connections are made below the awareness of the conscious mind and revealed in dreams and unconscious thought processes that pop into awareness unexpectedly.


Whether it is possible to duplicate these independent thought processes in a computer system is something I cannot say but it does not strike me as impossible, A computer should have the ability to construct its own controlling algorithms and endow each of its information templates to connect with other groups of information to form new innovative configurations known only to itself. This is where artificial intellect could get out of control, but also where it might prove most valuable. Beyond that, I cannot speculate.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post Number:#2939  Postby Wayne92587 » Yesterday, 7:51 pm

Consciousness is symptomatic of an orderly System of Chaos.
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