Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand »

The concept of a mechanical version of ethical considerations is, to say the least, quite amusing. Ethics is basically a system of considerations relating to the functions of human society and how they maybe constrained for maximum benefit tosociety's members. A machine probably has the potential to be fitted with the presumed constraints of a particular set of ethics but these systems vary considerably between cultures so the universal set of ethics has yet to be determined since no social order yet produced by humanity has been able to resolve the many contradictions between the many suppositions of propriety. Utopia is a fantasy of human suppositions yet to be satisfactorily formulated.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Sy Borg »

Belindi wrote: June 18th, 2018, 3:25 am
Mark1955 wrote: June 17th, 2018, 4:50 am
Agreed, a decision tree lacks the tendency to confirmational bias that the brain shows, but could we program a computer to corrupt it's decision tree with confirmational bias and all the other inherent imperfections the brain demonstrates, so it behaved like a brain. Possibly one day. Would that then make it impossible to distinguish from a human, and if it can't be distinguished from a human how can we say it isn't conscious if we think humans are conscious.
If the intelligent machine were to be made so that they were devoid of confirmation bias then they could not be any sort of ideologues as their decision tree would constantly look to their natural and social environment. Those machines would be ethically superior to human beings, and any society founded upon the morality of those intelligent machines would be Utopian.

On the other hand if the intelligent machines were to be made to be servants to power-hungry ideologues whose confirmation biases skewed their perceptions of their social and natural environments then the intelligent machines' decision trees would be as faulty as their owners' decision trees, and they would more empower their unpleasant owners.
Yes, this is where my optimism comes in - that machines have the potential to be more reasonable and morally consistent than people. This calm utilitarianism may well work with society at large scales rather than having decisions influenced by buddies, ego and fixed, irrational ideologies. However, at the small scale, individuals are more like the little girl with the little curl or perhaps Forrest Gump's chocolates :)

They will be abused, but that process is already in train. Does it matter whether a decision comes from a machine or an inflexible company policy "programmed" by a committee or board?
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Jan Sand wrote: June 18th, 2018, 3:51 am The concept of a mechanical version of ethical considerations is, to say the least, quite amusing. Ethics is basically a system of considerations relating to the functions of human society and how they maybe constrained for maximum benefit tosociety's members. A machine probably has the potential to be fitted with the presumed constraints of a particular set of ethics but these systems vary considerably between cultures so the universal set of ethics has yet to be determined since no social order yet produced by humanity has been able to resolve the many contradictions between the many suppositions of propriety. Utopia is a fantasy of human suppositions yet to be satisfactorily formulated.
The all-seeing, all-perceiving intelligent machine would learn about that aspect of its environment which is local traditions and local world views, and take those into consideration along with its knowledge of local weather systems and local terrain. Indeed the local and detailed is the best data for historians and other social sciences.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand »

People who are members of society all their lives and who are grown up within society and trained to behave in a particular manner to conform to social practices obviously violate accepted ethics in tremendous numbers because of personal considerations as evidenced by many powerful and capable leaders in government and legal situations and financial organizations amongst many other institutions. In these areas machines cannot be designed in ethics better than humans who are deeply involved in human relationships since the standards are so vague and easily misinterpreted out of conflicting goals. It's most unlikely that humans can even perceive the basis for designing an ethical machine.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand »

There is an excellent six part series by a Dr.Eagleman at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvPu2kYstcg which rationally investigates the operation of the human brain and the consciousness. Artificial intelligence barely enters the areas where the human brain performs its dynamics. It seems to me that viewing this presentation is required to anybody attempting to conceive of the nature of human and machine intelligence. It certainly does not answer all questions on the matter but it is an excellent introduction of how these problems must be faced.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Jan Sand wrote:
People who are members of society all their lives and who are grown up within society and trained to behave in a particular manner to conform to social practices obviously violate accepted ethics in tremendous numbers because of personal considerations as evidenced by many powerful and capable leaders in government and legal situations and financial organizations amongst many other institutions.
On the other hand there are people who are trained to be as objective as possible for men to be. Who will win, the conformers to someone else's bias, or the objective observers? That fight is still being fought, Jan.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand »

In the Eagleman series I recommended in my last comment in section five of the series he examines the manner in which those sectors of humanity who profit by removing large sectors of the population from the category of humanity and thereby permitting them to be viciously mistreated and frequently massacred to the profit of power and financial gain, there is a zenith being reached wherein the functional integration of the necessary elements which permit life on the planet to exist will be totally destroyed.The mass death of many species including mammals, insects, reptiles and amphibians and all sorts of marine life through global warming and wide distributions of poisonous chemicals is clear evidence that final junction of destructive forces is becoming inevitable. The totally insane human powers which now drive in human dynamics has not much longer to perform its final suicidal acts. At an advanced age, I really have stopped caring since my time left is short anyway. The incomplete possibilities of the small very bright and competent sector in humanity makes me wish it were not so but I cannot be optimistic in the face of the immense stupidities now in force.
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Mark1955 »

Belindi wrote: June 18th, 2018, 3:25 am
Mark1955 wrote: June 17th, 2018, 4:50 am
Agreed, a decision tree lacks the tendency to confirmational bias that the brain shows, but could we program a computer to corrupt it's decision tree with confirmational bias and all the other inherent imperfections the brain demonstrates, so it behaved like a brain. Possibly one day. Would that then make it impossible to distinguish from a human, and if it can't be distinguished from a human how can we say it isn't conscious if we think humans are conscious.
If the intelligent machine were to be made so that they were devoid of confirmation bias then they could not be any sort of ideologues as their decision tree would constantly look to their natural and social environment. Those machines would be ethically superior to human beings, and any society founded upon the morality of those intelligent machines would be Utopian.
For the machines or the lower beings like us. After all the simplest way to a more ethical society would be to eliminate the unethical humans.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand »

And, of course, that elimination process would make the removers unethical, by many acceptable standards.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Mark1955 wrote:
After all the simplest way to a more ethical society would be to eliminate the unethical humans.
But the more ethical humans , who I claim are the same as the more reasoning humans, are not so sure of themselves that they'd be so Draconian.
If there were such as a wholly knowledgeable wholly reasoning machine it would closely resemble the old-fashioned omniscient God who could not blame any human for anything which that human did.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Jan Sand, you are right to be not optimistic. Your pessimism is your passport to the ethical people tribe.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand »

There are universes of different ethics and i have a passport to but a few.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Sy Borg »

Belindi wrote: June 19th, 2018, 12:24 pm Mark1955 wrote:
After all the simplest way to a more ethical society would be to eliminate the unethical humans.
But the more ethical humans , who I claim are the same as the more reasoning humans, are not so sure of themselves that they'd be so Draconian.
If there were such as a wholly knowledgeable wholly reasoning machine it would closely resemble the old-fashioned omniscient God who could not blame any human for anything which that human did.
Nature has its own version. People (and others) are not punished for being bad, rather they are punished for being weak, slow, soft, dumb, gentle, fearful or unlucky. Our ancestors were the strong, fast, smart, aggressive, brave and lucky.

As far as I can tell, our laws and social structures largely support nature's approach, but there have been many successes along the way in attempts to alleviate the harshness of it all.

As for a reasoning machine, plants and various other organisms - not to mention technology - suggest to us that intelligence without associated consciousness is common. So a reasoning machine need not be conscious to be highly effective.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand »

There is a tendency in this discussion to relegate the term "machine" to an artificial human construction but any energetic interaction of matter is, essentially, mechanical. I wonder what the concept of effective can mean in that concept since all causes have effects. The concept of being effective is, perhaps, tied closely to intent to achieve a goal and goals require some kind of intellect. Anything alive has the inherent goals of survival and reproduction and in that sense, intellect can be a matter of nervous dynamics or structural dynamics so that all living things require one or the other form of intelligence.In a larger sense, even mental intellect is structural.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Jan Sand wrote:
There is a tendency in this discussion to relegate the term "machine" to an artificial human construction but any energetic interaction of matter is, essentially, mechanical.
Yes, true. But humans evolved not only through the genetic channel but intrinsically they evolved through the culture channel, and to a significantly much greater extent than any other animal. Even before the advent of written recording of cultures there was oral skill and tradition, and pictures. Human cultures shaped genetic evolution. Genetic evolution has much machine- like logic but it's unlikely that anybody would call cultural evolution a 'machine'.

I am not claiming that all cultures are equally sustainable. It's true that societies led by power oriented cultures, such as the fascist , xenophobic , or Bolshevic are viable for a period. However natural disasters tend to improve the relative power of individual hewers of wood and drawers of water if only by means of attrition. Reason, which is man's especial forte, shows that moderate socialism is more viable than any culture which benefits mainly the governing elite.

After you and I are dead or hopelessly decrepit, Jan Sand, the fight will continue.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021