Philosophy Discussion Forums

Jan Sand:

Consciousness requires awareness of both inner interactions of the data contained and methods for manipulating it in relation to directed pattern forming but also sense input from exterior sources to give it reference to its place in space and time and how those references can be utilized in its functions.

As stated on Hermes, Thoth's Emerald Table, the correctly evolved Psychic that has a dual quality,One above and One Below, Mankind, a Humane Being functioning as a Fractal, Fraction.

That which is above is given the Name Woman, is deemed to be the Numerator, Enumerator, the Great Femininity is a priori Reality which can not be Understood, is not fathomable.

That which is below is given the Name Man; being Masculine, having Machismo, iis the one that takes "Action, being the doer.,

These two although from the same Source are given different names as the two issue forth as One-1.

The Two Mind and Body, Spirit and Flesh, man and woman, acting as the Whole of a Single Reality, the "Whole-y Grail . -->0, The Lord of the Ring, Ye, Amen Ra, So Be It. Make it so!!!!!!!!

Mystery upon Mystery, in what js the proportion of each , one to the other.

As long as that which is above is less than that which is below said Fractal, Fraction, Singularity having a dual qualtiy, the two as one form a proper Fractal.

If that which is above is greater than that winch is above the whole becomes Irrational.
The proper proportions of one to the other is such; that which is above is to be the same as that which is below, that which is below is to be the same as that which is above.

Tge

Jan Sand wrote:Consciousness requires awareness of both inner interactions of the data contained and methods for manipulating it in relation to directed pattern forming but also sense input from exterior sources to give it reference to its place in space and time and how those references can be utilized in its functions. Probably robot computers already have much of these abilities. But a living brain also contains within itself a model of its environment and itself in that environment which permits it to navigate the model to plan ahead on its movements and their probable results. I am almost totally uninformed on robot technology so I have no idea of how they operate.

By " inner reactions" do you mean memories?

Sometimes something goes wrong with somebody's brain chemicals so that , instead of the environment outside the skull as source of information, the person's memories are the information source. Then, if the person is in a state of waking awareness, she hallucinates. Hallucinatory consciousness is a form of consciousness. So is dreaming sleep a form of consciousness.

Dream sleep can include consciousness of self as part of the dream. Some dreams don't include the dreamer's self, but are like a cine film of which the dreamer is a passive observer.

My contribution to this post distinguishes between consciousness and awareness. However, like Jan Sand, I don't know how AI works or what it is now capable of.

Belindi wrote:

Greta wrote:Do you think this could this happen in increments, that one might see oneself as a subject amongst subjects to some extent?

Yes, I do. I think that humans can and do become more, or less as the case may be, like machines. But I'm not recommending the old -time religion, Free Will, route.

It's interesting. As the society as a whole becomes more sophisticated, individuals are capable of doing much more through expertise in operating one functional aspect of the society to a high degree, and the opportunity cost for that empowerment is loss of individual empowerment, independence and freedom.

Consider what humans were and then consider what they will become. I suspect the differences may be of a similar or equivalent nature to those between amoebas and cells.

In my examination of how my brain works I have found it makes sense to presume that the bulk of the brain is an intelligence separate from that of the consciousness and thinks in a different way. The central brain collects data from the sense apparatus and formulates from this and from genetic predispositions a model of the outside world which it revises constantly as new data is recognized. This formulation, as I have mentioned previously, is what our consciousness accepts as reality although much of the input raw sensory data has been modulated by the central brain as irrelevant and made sensitive to previous experience and emotion. The consciousness is a tool of the central intellect used to react to the internal dynamic model of reality and direct the central intellect for useful responses to changes in the reality model to produce correct responses. The consciousness thinks with logic and presumptions of possibilities. The internal main brain thinks with association and with the templates it obtains from genetic direction. The internal brain is continually manufacturing various possible realities which we can experience as dreams when the functional reality is closed down in the dreaming state. I have asked other people what they see with their eyes closed. Most see nothing at all. When I close my eyes I can see the images that my inner brain is constructing and modifying which is the stuff of dreams, which is why it seems to me that this is how my central nervous system functions.

Jan, you use phrases like "bulk of the brain" (separate from consciousness), "central brain", "central intellect", "internal main brain", "inner brain". Any chance you want to apply anotomical specifics? Because I think I can.

*

Sorry, I cannot respond well at the moment. I awoke this morning feeling quite ill and am on the point of calling an ambulance to a hospital. I am an exhibition designer and with the help of a neurologist back in 1960 I dissected several human brains so I gave a very limited concept of brain architecture. Much has been learned since so I really am in the dark about the whole business but merely speak from personal analysis of my own thinking processes.

Best wishes for a quick recovery Jan. I will be thinking of you.

-- Updated November 25th, 2017, 5:46 am to add the following --

Greta wrote:

Belindi wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Yes, I do. I think that humans can and do become more, or less as the case may be, like machines. But I'm not recommending the old -time religion, Free Will, route.

It's interesting. As the society as a whole becomes more sophisticated, individuals are capable of doing much more through expertise in operating one functional aspect of the society to a high degree, and the opportunity cost for that empowerment is loss of individual empowerment, independence and freedom.

Consider what humans were and then consider what they will become. I suspect the differences may be of a similar or equivalent nature to those between amoebas and cells.

This expertise business reminds me of the expanding universe which as it gets bigger distances more and more its units from each other. I mean,knowlege is become specialised into esoteric chunks. Alienation now means that scientists as scientists are alienated from philosophers as philosophers, or artists from artists. Does music bridge the gap? Maybe when the scientists, the religionists, and the philosophers all meet down at the pub they find their common humanity.

Amoebas and cells, I think this has already happened. Long live the free internet! And the free press!

-- Updated November 25th, 2017, 5:47 am to add the following --

JamesOfSeattle wrote:Jan, you use phrases like "bulk of the brain" (separate from consciousness), "central brain", "central intellect", "internal main brain", "inner brain". Any chance you want to apply anotomical specifics? Because I think I can.

*

James, I hope that when you do so you won't omit the brain chemicals.

Just got back from the hospital and I'm OK. We old guys have to be careful (I'm almost 92). I'd be interested in any thoughts on my comment. I'm basically an artist and visual patterns started me thinking about how they were formed and related to understanding reality and how the mind created it.

Glad you are better now, Jan.

Belindi wrote:I think that humans can and do become more, or less as the case may be, like machines. But I'm not recommending the old -time religion, Free Will, route.

Greta wrote:It's interesting. As the society as a whole becomes more sophisticated, individuals are capable of doing much more through expertise in operating one functional aspect of the society to a high degree, and the opportunity cost for that empowerment is loss of individual empowerment, independence and freedom.

Consider what humans were and then consider what they will become. I suspect the differences may be of a similar or equivalent nature to those between amoebas and cells.

Belindi wrote:This expertise business reminds me of the expanding universe which as it gets bigger distances more and more its units from each other. I mean,knowlege is become specialised into esoteric chunks. Alienation now means that scientists as scientists are alienated from philosophers as philosophers, or artists from artists. Does music bridge the gap? Maybe when the scientists, the religionists, and the philosophers all meet down at the pub they find their common humanity.

Amoebas and cells, I think this has already happened. Long live the free internet! :) And the free press! :)

It may be that the alignment of smaller consciousnesses towards a whole (rather than to each other) is the key to the creation of large meta consciousnesses, just as magnetism only works with conformity of alignment. Rather than focusing of electromagnetic energy, these meta structures compresses and concentrates minds.

While I love the idea of great new intelligences emerging from conforming parts, on a personal level I too would prefer to leave such conformity to others and doubt that these great forces need the slightest help from little people to emerge.

There are many levels of awareness, sensitivity to your environment.

Consciousness is simply an acute level of awareness to your environment.

Consciousness requires a great deal of training, conditioning, exists as the result of the Evolution of the Physic, of a Singularity having a dual quality.

There are two that issue forth from the same source, the singularity of mind, being give two names as the one that is two issues forth.

The masculine brain supplying the knowledge Reality that has substance, the Objective World of Reality.

The female, Rational Mind; Femininity, providing us with Priori Knowledge of Reality.

Knowledge of Reality born of the Rational Mind has no substance, can not be experience, is arbitrary. Flighty, is more often than not, Irrational.

Absolutely Bad Knowledge easily mistaken to be Absolutely Good Knowledge, is known to be the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Woman, Femininity, consciousness itself being a creation, existing without cause, being an affect, having no Single direct material cause;

Femininity; Woman, being created to be the help mate of Mankind, he and she.

As a male I still have strong memories of times in a baby carriage and crawling on the floor before I could walk. No training necessary. Consciousness is mysterious enough without trying to get sex involved.

Not sure gender matters with baby memories.

I remember sitting in a pram, scribbling circles on the wall with a pen held dagger-style - just going round and round. It was fun but I felt frustrated by the bumpiness of the render that impeded my motion but also found it fun, like a bumpy ride. Then I remember Mum coming into the room via the kitchen and then a sense of commotion, and that's where it stops. No doubt the sense of chaos was Mum's response :D

It was a very basic consciousness, a lot like a dog's, based largely on simple hedonistic drives and feelings.

Having never been a dog, I could not say. My impression is that either have a hedonistic awareness or I matured early.

-- Updated November 27th, 2017, 1:44 am to add the following --

Another point should be made about babies. Starting from absolutely no knowledge of the outside world at birth, the progress of a child into the intricacies of reason and the frequently totally illogical structures of languages is probably the most creative time of life of any individual. It seems to me that it should be credited to a small child that he or she is tremendously innovative in the first few years in being aware of all sorts of abstract difficulties and quickly overcoming them.

Consciousness is extraterrestrial, is not born of this Earth, World of Reality, nor is itself a physicality Reality; Consciousness is a substance that has no mass, is a creation born of the Whole Being, the MInd and the Body, the Spirit and the Flesh.

Consciousness as a creation appeared as if by Magic, Righ out of Left Field, the Clear Blue Sky.

To answer this, you would have to define what consciousness really is. I'm non-religious, so I'll be ignoring the concept of an immutable "soul" or essence that gives us definition. In essence, consciousness appears to be a kind of chaotic principle filtered down into a different, comprehensible form. However, saying that this is something that is unique to humanity is foolish. Consider the concept of the Boltzmann Brain, in which even inanimate matter can, with significant chaotic intervention, become conscious. But the full concept of consciousness in this and other examples may not even be something we would recognize. We may possess one of many forms of consciousness, a result of the specific predicaments and evolutionary changes our species has dealt with. Consider the process of unsupervised deep learning, which uses a process similar to the ones we use to learn. It is my belief that a computer can become "conscious", using processes such as that. To what degree and in what form this consciousness makes itself apparent may vary.