Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#61  Postby Exogen » November 27th, 2011, 6:05 pm

Groktruth wrote:
Exogen wrote:
I read stormy differently, understanding him to be saying that those who do not wish, hope, or choose to believe set up an impossible standard of proof. Then, by crying "Not proven!" they can retreat into the refuge of "Therefore, not true!" which they hope is safe.

They forget, and try to get us to forget, that we live in a world where nothing is proven, where we decide what is wise based on liklihood. Measuring such liklihood, we know from science, depends on the judicious use of faith, which guides the sensible to relevant evidence.


No I got that is what he meant, but I wanted to delineate the other side of that coin.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?



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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#62  Postby Groktruth » November 28th, 2011, 3:43 pm

stormy phillips wrote:Thank you Groktruth, cheers!..I will have a drink to that.. :P


My favorite is Scuppernong wine from Duplin winery. Takes me back to Curley Lucas and Rob van der Vaart teaching me about the "Ah, hah! Erlebneitz" (Spelling?), With the approprite, pleasent painkiller, I learned from them to recognize that door out of my own self-delusion.

"Beer does more than theology can, to explain the ways of God to man!"

:)
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#63  Postby stormy phillips » November 28th, 2011, 6:23 pm

"Beer does more than theology can, to explain the ways of God to man!"....I guess that is what Hemingway meant when he said....."Write drunk; edit sober."....Lol...@ Groktruth.
Men are not disturbed by things, but the view they take of things.....Epictetus
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#64  Postby Thinking critical » November 28th, 2011, 7:21 pm

Wooden shoe wrote:Hello Scott and All.

After reading the last group of posts I think it very safe to say the answer is YES. When the religious enter the discussion it always seems to turn into a slugfest between them.
Now we should be glad we do not have representation from the over 20000 other "christian" denominations, on this site.
But suffice it to say that each of these is convinced their faith is "THE WAY".
If that is not proof of self-delusion, I do not know what would be.

Regards, John.


Well said, after reading through some of these post I had reached the same conclusion myself and felt compelled to make a simlar comment. It appears you have already taken the words right out of my mind :-).
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#65  Postby Groktruth » November 29th, 2011, 2:01 am

Thinking critical wrote:
Wooden shoe wrote:Hello Scott and All.

After reading the last group of posts I think it very safe to say the answer is YES. When the religious enter the discussion it always seems to turn into a slugfest between them.
Now we should be glad we do not have representation from the over 20000 other "christian" denominations, on this site.
But suffice it to say that each of these is convinced their faith is "THE WAY".
If that is not proof of self-delusion, I do not know what would be.

Regards, John.


Well said, after reading through some of these post I had reached the same conclusion myself and felt compelled to make a simlar comment. It appears you have already taken the words right out of my mind :-).


FYI, the words "conclusion," and 'felt compelled" are epistemological red flags, alerting us to imminent danger of self-delusion. Truth be told, it's a process with no "conclusion" even hoped for, and feeling "compelled" implies some manipulation that is taking the decision out of your hand. Possibly, all things considered, from some malignant spiritual force, especially when the words are springing forth from the heart, almost unconsciously.

Just thought you would want to know.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#66  Postby Wooden shoe » November 29th, 2011, 11:33 am

Groktruth wrote:
FYI, the words "conclusion," and 'felt compelled" are epistemological red flags, alerting us to imminent danger of self-delusion. Truth be told, it's a process with no "conclusion" even hoped for, and feeling "compelled" implies some manipulation that is taking the decision out of your hand. Possibly, all things considered, from some malignant spiritual force, especially when the words are springing forth from the heart, almost unconsciously.
Just thought you would want to know. End quote.

Thank you so much Groktruth.
It so good to have a resident expert and practitioner of self-delusion to warn us less able on the pitfalls of using certain words.
Megalomania anyone?

Sorry Groktruth, the devil made me do it.[LOL]

Regards, John.
We experience today through the lens of all our yesterdays
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#67  Postby Groktruth » November 29th, 2011, 5:05 pm

Wooden shoe wrote:Groktruth wrote:
FYI, the words "conclusion," and 'felt compelled" are epistemological red flags, alerting us to imminent danger of self-delusion. Truth be told, it's a process with no "conclusion" even hoped for, and feeling "compelled" implies some manipulation that is taking the decision out of your hand. Possibly, all things considered, from some malignant spiritual force, especially when the words are springing forth from the heart, almost unconsciously.
Just thought you would want to know. End quote.

Thank you so much Groktruth.
It so good to have a resident expert and practitioner of self-delusion to warn us less able on the pitfalls of using certain words.
Megalomania anyone?

Sorry Groktruth, the devil made me do it.[LOL]

Regards, John.


Ah, excuse me! You evidently did not want to know. Guess you would like to forget about psychological projection as well.

For other readers, please note that this thread assumes that self-delusion is a possible human weakness, which, by definition, would be impossible for the untrained human to recognize on their own. Anyone here who is self-deluded would not know this to be the case about them, unless, of course, they took the objective stance of recognizing the potential problem, and went to whatever lengths necessary to spot it, and get it diagnosed. As a Diogenean philosopher, this prompted my decision to submit to doctoral training in science, the scientific method, specifically so that I would not stay self-deluded, if I had that problem. And, for the following 40 years, I have stayed with that study. I recommend it to anyone.

"Using certain words" can be pitfalls, it is true. But, words spring up out of our hearts revealing hidden problems that lurk there, which we have buried in self-delusion. Listening to oneself can be very helpful in self-diagnosis, which is no pitfall!

But, I ought to add, not all delusion is self inflicted. There are forces out there attempting to delude others. Those who do not know the difference between delusion and deception are especially vulnerable. Like the difference between faith and dogmatic opinions, understanding this makes a huge amount of difference.

Sorry, though, that you have to be reminded or encouraged to think about this from a megalomaniac. I'm working on getting that fixed, but, until I succeed, no reason why you ought not benefit from what I have learned. Your society paid for my education, after all.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#68  Postby Thinking critical » December 1st, 2011, 12:24 am

Groktruth wrote:
Thinking critical wrote:
Wooden shoe wrote:Hello Scott and All.

After reading the last group of posts I think it very safe to say the answer is YES. When the religious enter the discussion it always seems to turn into a slugfest between them.
Now we should be glad we do not have representation from the over 20000 other "christian" denominations, on this site.
But suffice it to say that each of these is convinced their faith is "THE WAY".
If that is not proof of self-delusion, I do not know what would be.

Regards, John.


Well said, after reading through some of these post I had reached the same conclusion myself and felt compelled to make a similar comment. It appears you have already taken the words right out of my mind :-).


FYI, the words "conclusion," and 'felt compelled" are epistemological red flags, alerting us to imminent danger of self-delusion. Truth be told, it's a process with no "conclusion" even hoped for, and feeling "compelled" implies some manipulation that is taking the decision out of your hand. Possibly, all things considered, from some malignant spiritual force, especially when the words are springing forth from the heart, almost unconsciously.

Just thought you would want to know.


Really, well isn't that interesting? Tell me then Grok for what reason was it that you consciously decided to sit down, type a message and send out this piece of insight? An outside observer might say you "felt compelled" to do so? Or perhaps you just wanted to show off some type of superior intelligence? That by the way would be a psychological red flag.
As for my use of the word "conclusion" if I had known my words were going to be scrutinized I would have said "after reviewing the fundamental belief systems implied by the various members of this forum it is obvious that yes faith certainly is synonymous with self-delusion, this fact is much more evident in those who display a blatant willingness to reject logic in order to hold on to there personal beliefs, even when they can admit that there own reasoning is both flawed and contradictive. This is displayed quite clearly in the following quote”

Blind, or evidence-less, faith thus becomes a contradiction in terms.

In theology, I learned that such contradictions in terms are evidence for something else we cannot see.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#69  Postby Groktruth » December 1st, 2011, 2:57 pm

Thinking critical,

I am not following you. A philosophical rule is that earlier definitions are the best to use, partly to honor the person who first described the concept, and partly to avoid semantic and confusing controversies. Hence, in natural history, taxonomists, while acknowledging other names for a species, give the first published priority.

Now, in my reading, the earliest published definition of faith is "evidence of things not seen." This is a classical hierarchical definition, identifying a super set (all evidence), and a subset of that super set, separated from the rest by the characteristic, "applies to things unseen." Everyone knows, of course, that "evidence" refers to sensory data that increases the plausibility of the reality of something else. When that something else is invisible, like air, the evidence that increases our sense of the plausibility that it is really real, would qualify as faith. Sailors seeing the ripples on the water surface put up their sails, having faith that there soon will be wind to catch.

Faith is applied to God because God cannot be seen.

The process of looking at things we can see, to help us better think and deal with things we cannot see, is foundational to science. Hence, theology has long been known as the queen of the sciences.

So, why are you saying this quote from me:

"Blind, or evidence-less, faith thus becomes a contradiction in terms."

is illogical?

John has already addressed my potential megalomania, or, as you put it, my desire to show off my superior intellect. I thought, actually, that this would be a good place to do that. Thought that this would be a place where it would be welcome, actually. Can't play football, or pass worth a hoot, but if I was really good at it, I'd get out there and show everybody, enjoying the applause. What I can do is learn and remember the philosophical rules I was taught which have been affirmed through the ages. And then "pass" them on. My teammates like to see me hit the nail on the head. My competition (I had actually not realized there was a competition here), when they are good sports, give me grudging credit. I try not to dance in the end-zone.

And, while of course I feel a pressure to react to what seem to me to be faulty posts, I do not click on Submit until I feel free to delete. If I have some measure of truth, I will have some measure of freedom. I suspected that you guys might not welcome this information, but this is a public forum, and I hope that there are readers here who do welcome this sort of information.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#70  Postby Thinking critical » December 1st, 2011, 7:55 pm

Grok;

Perhaps you could provide a citation for your "hierarchical definition" of the word faith.

As far as I’m aware the meaning you provided derives from King James Bible, Hebrew 11:1 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. King James Bible was first published 1611. The English word faith is thought to have come from the Latin word "Armani" between 1200-1250 which means "trust" derived from the word "fid ere" to trust.
So by philosophical standards the hierarchical definition of faith is simply to trust. Therefore where evidence is lacking you must have trust. Trust is by no means evidence of things not seen.

You seem to be familiar with the epistemological theory of fideism, which holds that true belief can only arise from faith, because reason and physical evidence cannot lead to truth. So basically faith is independent from reason. How ever a strong belief in something with no evidence or yet a strong belief in something even with evidence against it in my opinion is ignorance of reality....self delusion.

You speak of faith in regards to air. As you correctly stated evidence refers to sensory data that increases the plausibility of the reality of something "air" in this case. We can also physically feel air, we see its affects, we breath it and we can do experiments that prove beyond all reasonable doubt that yes this air does exist.
Tell me Grok how is this in any way comparative to trust, belief or faith in a God?

As for your potential megalomania, perhaps in regards to your analogy you could practice some sportsman ship and leave the condescending comments on the side line :-)
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#71  Postby Groktruth » December 2nd, 2011, 3:32 am

Thinking critical wrote:Grok;

Perhaps you could provide a citation for your "hierarchical definition" of the word faith.

As far as I’m aware the meaning you provided derives from King James Bible, Hebrew 11:1 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. King James Bible was first published 1611. The English word faith is thought to have come from the Latin word "Armani" between 1200-1250 which means "trust" derived from the word "fid ere" to trust.
So by philosophical standards the hierarchical definition of faith is simply to trust. Therefore where evidence is lacking you must have trust. Trust is by no means evidence of things not seen.

You seem to be familiar with the epistemological theory of fideism, which holds that true belief can only arise from faith, because reason and physical evidence cannot lead to truth. So basically faith is independent from reason. How ever a strong belief in something with no evidence or yet a strong belief in something even with evidence against it in my opinion is ignorance of reality....self delusion.

You speak of faith in regards to air. As you correctly stated evidence refers to sensory data that increases the plausibility of the reality of something "air" in this case. We can also physically feel air, we see its affects, we breath it and we can do experiments that prove beyond all reasonable doubt that yes this air does exist.
Tell me Grok how is this in any way comparative to trust, belief or faith in a God?

As for your potential megalomania, perhaps in regards to your analogy you could practice some sportsman ship and leave the condescending comments on the side line :-)


The "faith" of the King James Bible is an attempt to translate a Greek word, Pistus, I think. So, the meaning would have to go back to that use of the word, when it is used in a spiritual context. It is what I mean, anyway.

As to "faith is a God," it seems clear that the sense of trust arises out of evidence such as we have with air. We see something natural, and interpret it as God moving or acting. We engage in some action, like blowing, and we feel something that we can interpret as God moving. Now, it is God, a Person, not air, an impersonal object. So, what we see, or do and feel, that we take as evidence, is not connected the same way signs of air and properties of air are understood. But no less tangible, evidential.

Theology is called the queen of the sciences because it is more subtle than figuring out air. But, there are many experiments and much scientific research, that expects certain results because there is a God that we can trust. Results that are found. So, trust increases. Faith as defined by Paul in Hebrews. Tithers get richer, and trust. Pray-ers cry out to God, watch peace increase, and grow in trust. Self-delusion? When scientists do double-blind experiments, they say no, no evidence for self-delusion. Just an unkind accusation.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#72  Postby Philobot » December 2nd, 2011, 4:24 am

Groktruth, I really don't see the point in your wordiness. I mean besides the usual bickering about definitions.
What are you trying to do? Do you want to prove god? I consider your intellect is well enough to see that this can't be done.
So I'm really interested to know what your motivation is? Are you a retiree? Is it loneliness, boredom, self-validation, or what else could it be? I mean it must take you hours and hours to write all these things down. Why?
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#73  Postby Groktruth » December 2nd, 2011, 5:06 pm

Philobot wrote:Groktruth, I really don't see the point in your wordiness. I mean besides the usual bickering about definitions.
What are you trying to do? Do you want to prove god? I consider your intellect is well enough to see that this can't be done.
So I'm really interested to know what your motivation is? Are you a retiree? Is it loneliness, boredom, self-validation, or what else could it be? I mean it must take you hours and hours to write all these things down. Why?


I clarify my thinking by writing things down, and questions from others stimulate me to think of things that I find useful to remember later. Then, too, I am conducting one of my spiritual experiments, wherein I get these thoughts out where someone diligently and prayerfully (if that matters) searching for them could readily find them. Biblical theology predicts that if I do this, certain events will occur and be reported in the news. Finally, in case this theology is true, many wonderful things have happened in my life for which I ought to thank God, and I should want to return the blessing. Theologically, these postings make His putative job as judge of the universe much easier. Some people might try to get a lesser sentence worth the complaint, "How was I to know?" Now, if he is out there, He has an answer.

But, mosr importantly, I do the things specified in the biblical materials and methods to "hear God speak." Then, when strange thoughts come to mind that meet my expectations of what God speaking would be like, i figure, to complete the experiment, I have to act on them. That "voice" (speaking figuatively) tells me to make these posts. The above are what comes to mind when I ask, as you did, "Why?"

Godd question! Thanks!
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#74  Postby Philobot » December 3rd, 2011, 9:41 am

Groktruth wrote:I clarify my thinking by writing things down, and questions from others stimulate me to think of things that I find useful to remember later.


Well, I can understand that. It's the obvious reason. However, by writing thoughts down, are not thoughts also abstracted in the process and in so far 'made smaller than they are' and therefore, in a way, 'wrong'? I think, this is obvious too.

Groktruth wrote:Finally, in case this theology is true, many wonderful things have happened in my life for which I ought to thank God, and I should want to return the blessing. Theologically, these postings make His putative job as judge of the universe much easier.


So you think of yourself to be kind of 'His right hand'?

Groktruth wrote:Some people might try to get a lesser sentence worth the complaint, "How was I to know?" Now, if he is out there, He has an answer. But, mosr importantly, I do the things specified in the biblical materials and methods to "hear God speak." Then, when strange thoughts come to mind that meet my expectations of what God speaking would be like, i figure, to complete the experiment, I have to act on them. That "voice" (speaking figuatively) tells me to make these posts. The above are what comes to mind when I ask, as you did, "Why?"


And you write these posts due to the inspiration you've got or the 'voice of God in you'?

Groktruth wrote:Godd question! Thanks!


You're welcome. I think part of the understanding who we are is the honest questioning of our own actions.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#75  Postby Groktruth » December 3rd, 2011, 4:12 pm

Philobot,

In researching the claims of biblical theology, one has to "believe" for the sake of testing. It is a useful skill, since some have thought that "love believes all things." So, to slip easily into belief of all (or any) thing(s) makes one a better lover, one of my personal goals.

When I first began this research, I was working on the Linus Pauling theory of Vitamin C. He argued that epistemologically, one could only know the importance of Vitamin C for themselves by doing certain tests on oneself, doing experiments in which you yourself are the "guinea pig." This was the case because of idiosnycratic variations in the way each person metabolises the substance. (See Spitznagel, L. Lognormal model for ascorbic acid requirements in man. Bioscience 21, 981-984 (1971)). So, I did the experiments on myself that he recommended, and found myself much healthier. Still take mega-doses of vitamin C!

With this understanding, yes, I often believe myself to be seated at God's right hand, and in a conversation with Him, directed by His voice. I actually wish I could do this more than I do, because the most amazing and wonderful things happen in my life when I pull it off. But, like most people, I also spend much time entertaining, if not believing, the hypothesis that I have a vivid imagination. Not so productive of good, but it makes a useful control for the other. Theologically, of course, believing these things is a key ingredient to many of the experiments one is invited to try out.

It is especially persuasive when the "wonderful things" that happen are apparently beyond the control of one's expectations or mental manipulations.
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