What happens to us when we die?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand »

I have no relationship to the supernatural. Obviously much that is going on in the world is beyond our abilities to sense them but all that means is they must be ignored. Each living thing is equipped with a set of tools and we each meet problems to confront and solve. To live is to meet and solve those problems as well as we can. To me, that is the delight in being alive. And when we finally meet the insoluble, that's the end of us and we simply cease to exist. Life is the struggle to exist and one can either enjoy those confrontations and become capable or suffer under those we refuse to solve and succumb. Life is a battle and we either fight or prove unable to live. Many of the battles most people encounter are false challenges, especially in the area of social conformity. I pay little attention to my appearance and avoid, as much as possible, people who believe in standards that make little sense to me. But there are limits one cannot get away from and they can be a nuisance. But everybody is different and we each must choose our own battles. That choice must be done very carefully as we each have personal limits and skills and some we can handle and some we should not get involved with. And some can be solved with great patience and understanding and education. How we each live is a very personal choice and I cannot demand from others what I demand from myself.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sy Borg »

Nothing is more obvious than notions of living one's life to the fullest and then you're dead, game over. Yes yes yes. Everyone is aware of this, even those who claim not to believe it. The fact is unmissable. Once people or pets are here, then they are gone. When we sleep we are gone. So we must go away, no matter which way one slices or dices it.

There are also undercurrents to all of this, some that have been found, others that have not.
User avatar
SimpleGuy
Posts: 338
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by SimpleGuy »

Everybody would like to have contact with his departed relatives. Who wouldn't ? If there's anybody , who could just give me a clue how to do this, i would be grateful as well.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand »

As I have mentioned We do not live in what is assumed as reality, Our brain combines the input of the outside world from our several senses into a model which is incessantly updated into a dynamic model. That model is where we operate to control what we think is the real world. Our brain is very creative and what we don't actually see and hear the brain cab manufacture into what we believe is the true world. That is why hypnotized people actually experience what is suggested to see and hear but which are not actually there. As we accumulate memories through life, they are stored in our brains and they are the source of many things we presume are there to fill in the blanks of sense input that we presume must exist. That also explains hallucinations and are the materials that we use to form dreams. The more we know about some people who are close the more we have memories of people who have died and, even when they are alive, they can only exist out of the models we have made of them and continuously create as we experience them. Those dynamic models in our minds continue to function even when they no longer exist after they die. Although they can, then, only exist in full measure in our dreams, they remain a part of us and we can still react with them in our thoughts. Perhaps what we call ghosts are hallucinations that recreate them after they die . But even if they only exist in thought, they and all their characteristics still remain in our minds.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sy Borg »

Jan Sand wrote: January 20th, 2018, 6:38 pm As I have mentioned We do not live in what is assumed as reality, Our brain combines the input of the outside world from our several senses into a model which is incessantly updated into a dynamic model. That model is where we operate to control what we think is the real world. Our brain is very creative and what we don't actually see and hear the brain cab manufacture into what we believe is the true world. That is why hypnotized people actually experience what is suggested to see and hear but which are not actually there. As we accumulate memories through life, they are stored in our brains and they are the source of many things we presume are there to fill in the blanks of sense input that we presume must exist. That also explains hallucinations and are the materials that we use to form dreams. The more we know about some people who are close the more we have memories of people who have died and, even when they are alive, they can only exist out of the models we have made of them and continuously create as we experience them. Those dynamic models in our minds continue to function even when they no longer exist after they die. Although they can, then, only exist in full measure in our dreams, they remain a part of us and we can still react with them in our thoughts. Perhaps what we call ghosts are hallucinations that recreate them after they die . But even if they only exist in thought, they and all their characteristics still remain in our minds.
Jan, most are familiar with the conventional materialist narrative. However, logical positivism is far from the only school of thought, and is generally considered to gloss over the mysteries of existence, starting with the first "miracle" and moving forward as though the way things are is simply a given. This is practical. If one wants a healthy and happy life to the ripe old age of 92 and beyond, then that's probably a terrific way to go.

However, for some of us, our probing need have nothing to do with leading a long, healthy happy life and everything to do with simple curiosity about the nature of reality and being. It doesn't matter that the search is futile because, for some of us, the search is interesting and enjoyable.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand »

What I described was not logical positivism but a view of the nature of reality which is something that not only humans, but every dynamic living thing must construct to survive in its environment. That concept of reality is radically different for a squid, for an ant, for a bat and for each human. And it is different between different individuals of any species. It is something we must create to remain alive and is always pieced together from a limited variation of sense capabilities and modified by experience and culture and quite a few other factors. It is not at all a unified common creation.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sy Borg »

Actually life on Earth is very much a unified common creation that evolved from microbial colonies to human colonies, but life is also separated by individual identity; it's not an either-or situation. These are all large systems with a pyramid structure, consisting mostly of a base with a concentration at the top. So 99% of the mass of the solar system is the Sun, but its complexity is centred on Earth. Almost all of the Earth is geology, with the complexity largely centred in its biological component. Most life is simple with only a tiny proportion being intelligent. Even nations are structured this way.

I think of it like a particle/wave dichotomy, where the "particle" is the centre of complexity and the wave. If the particle dissipates, the wave continues for a little while. By the same token, when we clinically die it's generally accepted that one can still experience consciousness with the last few minutes of the brain's oxygen, perhaps with a sense of information compression/time dilation, as in dreams.

The notion of being dead and being aware that you are dead is mind-blowing to me - suspended in the silent blackness and nothingness of a senseless body, wondering what happens next.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand »

It's somewhat amusing that a great many humans never seem to be able to accept that the universe centers about humanity. Humans have existed for about a couple of millions of years which is a mere flicker in time. Having only a very superficial understanding of the other planets in the system, to judge humanity at the apex of anything except its ability to trash almost any co-existent life form locally is a mental deficiency that looks soon to be demolished in humanity's rush to make Earth unlivable. Although Mercury, Venus, the Moon, and Mars seem sterile we have no concept of what might be going on in the other local planets and the universe in general is pretty much a complete mystery.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand »

Sorry - should read "that the universe does not center around humanity"
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sy Borg »

Alas, my attempt to get back to the topic last post failed. Never mind.

That's the first time I've been accused on anthropocentrism. Quite amusing and rather bizarre. Usually I am chastised for focusing on the biosphere over humanity. I have never had time for philosophers who failed to consider evolution seriously when considering why human beings do the things they do.

Meanwhile, Jan, you are in denial if you think humans are not the pinnacle of evolution on earth so far. Do you believe bacteria, cockroaches, lizards, parrots, chimps and humans to be all equally sentient and complex? Sixty million years ago dinosaurs were the pinnacle. Do you deny that? Do you deny that trilobites were the pinnacle of evolution when they dominated the Earth? If so, why is it so hard to believe that humans are the current pinnacle of evolution?

The fact is that the human brain is the most complex entity that we know of for many trillions of kilometres. This cannot be denied.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand »

Sure, and the Tyrannosaurus Rex was probably at least one of the most fearful of beasts at the time. It is long gone, and humans are very close to being gone as well since they never learned that we are all merely experiments with life, At the moment it looks like an entirely different form of life is in the process of evolving that can be immune to radiation and diseases and even have a life length of, perhaps several thousand years. And under the right conditions it does not take hundreds of thousands of years to evolve. It can do it in a week. Intellect, as with long teeth and muscles, may not be the best that life can do. Perhaps to adapt in a few minutes to a new challenge might be the key, or perhaps something we have no concept about now. It seems quite likely that when humans have destroyed themselves, all sorts of viruses and bacteria will go on as before. So how should we rate which is superior?
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand »

To elaborate my concept just slightly, I considered your idea that the human mind is far more complex and powerful than in any animal and pursued the thought that mental acuity may not be the only superiority that is so valuable. In my previous reply I posed that a robot form of life might be superior but it occurred to me that complexity has other competitors. What makes a life form superior is its ability to be more powerful and indestructible and prolific so if a bacteria or mold or something else could directly utilize the now liberally distributed radioactive waste humans have created with its huge energy output it might become hugely successful as a life form with the ability to live in very energy poor or hostile areas such as space or places like the Moon or Mars or even planets like Venus or Mercury.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sy Borg »

I doubt that humans will go extinct any time soon, even though there will inevitably be population "corrections" this century. We are not dinosaurs; we can anticipate problems and deal with them, or at least the smart ones. Note that dinos are not really extinct, just smaller, smarter and given the label of "birds". There are perhaps 400 billion individual birds alive at present, which isn't so shabby for animals that are ostensibly extinct :)

I agree that persistence matters - everything that is present today is just that which has persisted. Innumerable other forms have come and gone since. Rather than natural selection I think of it as physical selection, because rocks and other things either persist or not in much the same way as life does. However, persistence is just one aspect, as is complexity - there is also the quality of that persistence and complexity.

What humans do seems to fit normal natural patterns, though. Our activity and role in nature has been thus far been strikingly similar to that of imaginal discs within metamorphosing insects. Imaginal discs essentially turn a metamorphising insect's innards into mush (like us breaking down ecosystems) and then they use the mush as resources with which to become the structures of the animal's reproductive form. That's what humans are doing on the Earth - taking other parts of nature and turning them into space programs which will send Earth's genetic and memetic material off-world to spread and/or reproduce.

I expect that the bulk of this furthering of the Earth's legacy will be performed by AI rather than humans, who seem to be too fragile for deep space travel. This seems a likely way that AI would replace us in time, not through revolution but through simply being more durable. As things stand, the Earth's biosphere was entering its dotage long before humans arrived and is probably in its last 10% of life. In well under a billion years' time the Earth's surface will be sterilised by the Sun.

This, however, may not be much of an issue for any remaining AI. I find it a beautiful thought that, in time, the Earth's surface will probably be entirely populated by communities or cities of AI, beavering away at whatever projects matter to them. It would be as if the circle turned - with geology spawning biology, which then turned back into geology, having gained biology's intelligence. Like the Earth itself, they would not be biological but they would be alive in their own way.
User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2837
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Hereandnow »

So much empirical science here, defining the world and our place in it. But there are other approaches altogether. Here is one I think I posted before (entirely off the train of thought in these posts but important because what is missing: the real world) but is worthy. It's constructed out of Wittgenstein's Lecture on Ethics. If you have a mind, see what you think (hope it's not too long winded):
Consider the good: this word has meaning in ordinary affairs, as in "that cup is a good one." In this sense, the goodness of the cup in embedded in a context that defines what good is. It is good as a drinking vessel, the stem is sturdy, the volume sufficient, and so on. Most common goods are like this. Note how context changes the goodness: You have a knife that is very dull and I say that it is a bad knife, but then, you tell me the knife is supposed to be dull for a performance of Macbeth and a dull knife is a safe knife. Suddenly, being sharp is bad. And it changed instantly, there being no residual good of the sharpness to be now applied. Indeed, sharp is now bad.
This is the world of contingency, and most things go like this as all meanings are in play, not just their being good. This is an ink well, but makes a fine paper weight, but on being robbed it becomes a weapon. Nothing is fixed in this world. No meanings are stand alone (difference and differance? ring a bell?) What does it mean to say "Is there a text in this class?" Does it refer to a book? A standard interpretation? Is the student looking for a textbook she left behind? All are in play.
But now, consider the good in ethics. Take an extreme case of suffering as this makes the case most effectively (keep in mind, all I need is a single example to serve as a counter example to make my case. No matter if I ignore other kinds of experiences). I am told if I torture this child for one minute then the torturing of a thousand children for a solid day (or how about an eternity) will be averted. Obviously, I should torture the one child, based on pure utility; this is the clear choice.
Now the point: Notice the sharpness of the knife vanishes as good when the new context is applied. But the torture of the child for one minute abides as bad regardless of how strongly the contextual conditions apply. It could be for just ten seconds of torture vis a vis an eternity for a million children, and this does not change one whit the awfulness of the five seconds. In fact, and this is what I'm getting at: No matter what, the torture is bad. No matter how you conceive of a way to recontextualize the badness, it never becomes good. And this means that ethical goodness and badness is absolute. To be unchanging and fixed AS IF it were written in stone by the hand of God, God being here that which cannot be overturned.
Why is this important? Because all this talk about science and the way We fit into ITS objectifying theories puts human values, its ethical goods and bads, into frameworks of contingency, that is, of meanings that are in play. All this talk about how meaningless things get when at the mercy of the savages of nature does not recognize this extraordinary feature of human (and animal) reality, which is value. This changes everything, for as valuative creatures, ones that care and do so deeply (imagine you're that child), there is a dimension that science cannot touch, which is ethical value. It cannot touch it because, and this is the kicker, the badness in the ethical sense is outside of observation. As Wittgenstein put it: Take all the facts of the world and you will not find any fact of value. Yet, value is what being human/animal is all about.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand »

Al5hough I agree with you that AI will replace humans it seems to me is is happening a lot faster than you realize. Already the viable need for humans in the dynamics of civilization is rapidly vanishing. The latest reports that around 30% of the birds have vanished and over half of the insects that provide food for them has likewise disappeared. The highly amusing tendencies to put the stupidest people in charge of the world seems to ensure that humans will vanish also within only a few decades. That evolution highly approves of its latest trick to use robots as its means of evolving seems well in hand. I suspect that those now acknowledged reports of UFOs may take a hand in the final stages of getting rid of the idiotic humans now destroying the ecology. Although I am very fond of birds whose brains are much more efficient than human brains still lag to a large degree behind the AI versions in ability to develop rapidly. No doubt humans can be rather cute and amusing but it seems they have had their day and even cockroaches seem more durable.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021