What happens to us when we die?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Greta
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » August 14th, 2016, 12:54 am

Danny wrote:Our main problem with death is our lack of understanding this phenomenon fully - we only understand what we see which leads to a confrontation of the rational with the irrational. The result? Absurdity. Therefore I want to maintain that death is in its essence a mystery to us, because we suffer from "cognitive closure" with regard to it. The toughest part of this is to acknowledge that we can never know while alive. I must admit that I've struggled with this intensely and that my struggle is still continuing. Can't imagine that this is a problem which can be solved by "scientific progress". Or do you think I'm wrong?
I think you are right. Science can help, but since it works from the bottom-up, it cannot validly provide ultimate conclusions. I don't think we can square death because we are not in touch with life and existence. We largely live abstractly but must face actual reality when we die. It's shocking, as actual reality* always is. Maybe future humans will be more philosophical? Or they might be even more neurotically attached.

I have an eccentric notion that the moments of death could be an utterly ecstatic experience. Even discounting NDE accounts, we tend to be happiest when in the flow, completely focused on what we are doing without a care about outside influences. Immersive experiences are the most transcendent experiences. I figure that nothing will focus the old mind quite like impending doom :) After all, by that point it's not as though we'll have bigger fish to fry. That will be IT. The Big One. We will be focused as never before. I expect that, if we're not completely zoned out by illness or drugs, we will experience reality in the now as rarely or never before. After that, of course, is anyone's guess.


* or close to actual reality

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Atreyu » August 14th, 2016, 9:57 pm

If awareness continues after death, it has nowhere else to go to other than back to the point of conception, that is, the beginning. Where else could it go?

At death awareness ends. It cannot continue to exist in the present or the future. The only way it can go on is to continue to exist in its respective time. It is what it is.

Remember, awareness sprang from non-existence, from non-awareness. So at death, we are in the exact same position we were in before we were born --- we don't exist. Why would anything be different the next time around, the next time we do not exist?

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Present awareness » August 14th, 2016, 10:51 pm

The thing about life is that there has never been a time when we were not alive, in one form or another. Prior to our current individual form, we were alive in our ancestors. Our mothers and fathers, grandparents, great grandparents, stretching back through eternity. It is my belief that the universe has always been here and life has always been here. Since there is no beginning or end, the concept of time becomes redundant.
When we die, however, it seems as if, for the first time, we cease to exist. This may only be an illusion of the mind, which is unable to grasp the idea of non existence. If in fact we do die, we won't have a mind to grasp that fact, and so we won't know that we are dead.
I also suspect that Greta is right, in that the actual experience of dying will be ecstatic, once the fear has subsided. The ultimate climax to life!
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.

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Greta
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » August 15th, 2016, 3:58 am

Atreyu:
If awareness continues after death, it has nowhere else to go to other than back to the point of conception, that is, the beginning. Where else could it go?
Maybe that's the blissful light? The (relatively) blinding light of the birth canal while the foetus's brain is flooded with dopamine. Ha! I hope not. I need a rest after this ride. If I have to immediately fall back into life then the universe, God or whatever is running the show is a slavedriver!

PA,

How long "we" have existed depends on who we identify as "self" and how visceral or abstract that identification. For instance, I identify as part of the Earth but it's an abstract identification because there's so much of Earth that I don't know or much care about, and vice versa.

But yes, the reports from NDEs tend to be encouraging. My major peak experience (which of course is pitifully weak evidence for others but significant for me) suggested to me a fast shedding of any cares as your complete impotence to effect things hits home. As for those who don't have any experience at the end, no harm no foul, as you suggest. The downside is simply what a dull outcome that would be! I still hold out hope that the Planck scale accumulates everything, but I admit that it's looking like the ever-shrinking non-annihilation of the gaps :lol:
This space left intentionally blank.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Belinda » August 15th, 2016, 4:19 am

Greta wrote:
My major peak experience (which of course is pitifully weak evidence for others but significant for me) suggested to me a fast shedding of any cares as your complete impotence to effect things hits home.
(My underline)

If that what your peak experience was, then I think I had one too, a very brief one. It was in its way quite an eye-opener. It's a pleasant feeling too and all too transient.

However, I do believe that the insight can be arrived at intellectually. Last week I had occasion to read an ancient Greek myth, and a wonderful re- telling of the myth by a modern poet. This means a lot to me as the description and explanation of transience and impotence.
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » August 15th, 2016, 8:48 am

Belinda wrote:However, I do believe that the insight can be arrived at intellectually.
I agree. Thought experiments, intuition and flashes of ... whatever can provide us with information but those "revelation" means are more prone to more way out errors than good, old reliable serial deduction. As I say, when you are on the verge of death it's not as though you are likely to be distracted with more important things to think about! One doesn't need to have a peak experience to realise that but apparently I did :)

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Rr6 » August 15th, 2016, 10:22 am

r6 dies ergo the I-verse no longer exists. This is the ultimate ego death that accompanied the ever changing biological body.

There is no looping of any I-verse. That is loopy consciousness, that, does not acceptteh coming, terminal ending of I-verse.

Loopy thoughts of human individual OOOOOOO come to terminal ending.

Genetic material is passed on in some cases, in others it is not. R6 will not be passing on genetic information to another human individual. Loopy thinking will not stop the terminal ending of access to the r6 accessing of I-verse.

Energy is neither created nor lost. R6 I-verse is created { beginning } and it is lost { ending }.

Biological genetic material may exist eternally in our finite, occupied space (-><-)(-><-) Universe, the individual I-verse, does not.

( * * ) I-verse

\* */ female I-verse

*Y* male I-verse

Pi^3 = 31.00 62 7 66 80 299820175476315067101 is terminal because a calculator is limited ergo can only express a finite decimal.

Our I-verse time has terminal ending and beginning. There is no getting beyond old the Asian or Indonesian belief system of acceptance. We go with the flow of the current, the winds, the spin of the Earth and terminal ending.

R6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by SANER » August 29th, 2016, 7:16 pm

Death is the ownmost possibility of all possibilities in life.
When we die, we die alone since nobody could die for us or take our place.
We can always be certain that when we die we will be placed in a casket. Our family and friends are there to mourn over our death.
The challenge then is to befriend death rather than making it an enemy.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Rr6 » September 11th, 2016, 8:29 am

Here today ( * * ) gone tommorrow.

r6
Rr6 wrote:r6 dies ergo the I-verse no longer exists. This is the ultimate ego death that accompanied the ever changing biological body.
There is no looping of any I-verse. That is loopy consciousness, that, does not acceptteh coming, terminal ending of I-verse.
Loopy thoughts of human individual OOOOOOO come to terminal ending.
Genetic material is passed on in some cases, in others it is not. R6 will not be passing on genetic information to another human individual. Loopy thinking will not stop the terminal ending of access to the r6 accessing of I-verse.
Energy is neither created nor lost. R6 I-verse is created { beginning } and it is lost { ending }.
Biological genetic material may exist eternally in our finite, occupied space (-><-)(-><-) Universe, the individual I-verse, does not.
( * * ) I-verse
\* */ female I-verse
*Y* male I-verse
Pi^3 = 31.00 62 7 66 80 299820175476315067101 is terminal because a calculator is limited ergo can only express a finite decimal.
Our I-verse time has terminal ending and beginning. There is no getting beyond old the Asian or Indonesian belief system of acceptance. We go with the flow of the current, the winds, the spin of the Earth and terminal ending.

R6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Saw038 » September 18th, 2016, 8:19 pm

I think nothing happens to us when we die. But nothing might not be so blank after all. You see the material universe that we and can conceive only constitutes roughly 5% of the total energy in the universe.

The rest is primarily dark energy (around 70%) and then dark matter (around 25%).

My point is, if you look into the physics of nothingness, you find there is always a somethingness to it.

Furthermore, if you believe are consciousness and our existence to be made of material or energy that abides by the laws of physics, then the same as to apply with this notion of nothingness.

Therefore, when we die I think we will return to nothingness, but I think nothingness is what we have been seeking the whole time while we have been living in the small world of somethingness.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Rr6 » September 20th, 2016, 10:07 am

Saw038--My point is, if you look into the physics of nothingness, you find there is always a somethingness to it.


There is exists, macro-micro infinite space. This is the first, rational, logical conclusion.

"Somethingness" = the finite occupied space ergo = structural and systemic integrity.

Macro-infinite, non-occupied space does not have structure, system or integrity ergo your there exists no physics { physical/energy or as occupied space } i.e. it is irrational, illogical and lacks common sense to suggest the macro-infinite is an occupied space somethingness.

I really hope to someday find some philosopher who actually can put their ego aside and follow some relatively simple, rational logical common sense pathways of thought. :o
Furthermore, if you believe are consciousness and our existence to be made of material or energy that abides by the laws of physics, then the same as to apply with this notion of nothingness.

Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts are derived from consciousness, not the other way around. Many animals have consciousness, however, the degree of access to metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/ccncepts can vary greatly.
Therefore, when we die I think we will return to nothingness, but I think nothingness is what we have been seeking the whole time while we have been living in the small world of somethingness.
Occupied space cannot be created nor destroyed. Phyiscal/energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

Only the metaphysical-1 [/b], I, in I-verse, ceases to exist. The occupied space continues on in various structural configurations.

You need to review my top-to-bottom,cosmic heirarchy to better your understanding of what exists. imho

None have ever offered any rational, logical common sense that invalidates my cosmic list, none ever will. unless some new info comes to our attention.

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Saw038 » September 20th, 2016, 1:00 pm

Rr6 wrote: What is this
top-to-bottom,cosmic heirarchy

that you keep on talking about. I would like to see it.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sealight » September 23rd, 2016, 8:43 am

Saw038 wrote:I think nothing happens to us when we die.
There can be a problem with a full understanding of terms "us" and "die". I think before answering the TS question we should understand what "us" (or "I") is.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Marsh8472 » September 23rd, 2016, 9:09 am

How "us" is defined is unfortunately a factor in this question. It's theoretically possible that after I die a bunch of atoms can be assembled together by aliens to make an exact duplicate of me in a living state. From the point of view of that assembled me, it would seem like an afterlife if they used a copy of me right before death. But it's only going to be "me" if my identity is defined by my atom arrangement in this scenario. If an atomic copy of me is not considered me then this is not considered an afterlife for the entity typing this message right now.

-- Updated September 23rd, 2016, 9:10 am to add the following --
Sealight wrote:
Saw038 wrote:I think nothing happens to us when we die.
There can be a problem with a full understanding of terms "us" and "die". I think before answering the TS question we should understand what "us" (or "I") is.
I typed my answer before seeing yours so we're in agreement :)

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sealight » September 23rd, 2016, 12:34 pm

Marsh8472 wrote:How "us" is defined is unfortunately a factor in this question. It's theoretically possible that after I die a bunch of atoms can be assembled together by aliens to make an exact duplicate of me in a living state. From the point of view of that assembled me, it would seem like an afterlife if they used a copy of me right before death. But it's only going to be "me" if my identity is defined by my atom arrangement in this scenario. If an atomic copy of me is not considered me then this is not considered an afterlife for the entity typing this message right now.
Definitely this is the key question. To me a person is made of three main parts, not classical two, a body, a consciousness, and an ID (identity). I think the first two can be recovered on atomic level by aliens (or people in future), but not the ID. Why? I don't know the answer yet. Just some feelings. Basically there is a big difference between my consciousness and someone's else. So, if an ID is not recovered then neither a person is recovered.
What do you think?

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