What happens to us when we die?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#676  Postby Qualiam » February 3rd, 2017, 5:07 am

Platos stepchild wrote:
Qualiam wrote:I like this point (Greta, post 668 above). I know people who have had near death experiences and they say that while they are "dead," they are in a place of no time. They may describe it differently, because it is hard to describe to the rest of us who are so embedded in the medium of time that we have a hard time imagining no time. But this is why some of them say their entire life flashed before their eyes.

But your point that the passing of time is an observer effect rather than an objective reality is well taken. I think many scientists, especially those familiar with Special Relativity, would agree. This is another reason why I think that ultimate reality is composed of a timeless, infinite sea of ideas, with our awareness sailing over it, choosing which ideas to believe in. And one of those ideas was space, and one was time.


I'm of a different opinion, regarding time. I don't know whether it's fundamental to reality, or if time is how consciousness unfolds. But, at the very least, I believe that time is fundamental to how we experience reality. As such, a timeless reality is beyond our experience. In my youth, I dreamt of a Platonic realm, ethereal and beyond corruption. Despite my best efforts, though I could never imagine how a bridge might span between corruption and incorruption. How might the abutments of such a bridge be rooted in both sides? Surely they would be of this world or the other; but, time cannot blend seamlessly into eternity.


Time does seem to be fundamental to how we experience reality, but perhaps time is truly necessary only when dealing with physical reality. I have experienced moments of "suspended" time, when in a meditative state. During that time, with my eyes closed and not having to deal with physical matter, I am not aware of the passing of time. I am not experiencing time, but seem to be aware of very pure and abstract ideas.

One way to imagine a timeless realm is to think of mathematics. It is an abstract universe of mathematical and geometrical objects that have eternal being. Infinite equations, formulas, theorems etc are there, autonomous and changeless. Minds can discover these objects and use them in the world of space and time, but they themselves are timeless and completely independent of minds thinking about them.

Regarding the Platonic realm, I am very interested in Plato's Theory of Forms. Here is a quote I found from a woman who, in her teens, had an experience which led her to study molecular biology, neural networks and quantum computing to try and understand her experience. She wrote the following at the age of 26 :

"I was aware of having found an original world that we once knew but have forgotten. It always stands on our side, but we do not see it. But sometimes a glimmer opens, revealing a vision of unthinkable perfection and beauty, of superhuman harmony. The unfathomable mystery of life instantly reveals itself, of life we are the beneficiaries."

She later compared her vision with Plato's Theory of Forms. I believe, like Plato, that the transcendental realm of Forms, or Ideas, is our true and ultimate reality. This world, with its space and time and "corruption" is my ego's attempt to separate from that realm and experience individuality, within a dualistic world. But in truth, only perfection is meaningful. It requires vision to know that realm of "unthinkable perfection and beauty, of superhuman harmony." I think that would be at least part of the bridge from this world to that realm.
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#677  Postby Tom Butler » February 24th, 2017, 7:13 pm

New here, so I will try not to rehash old arguments. I do see that some well considered points have been made. Just about every perspective has been taken and it seems disrespectful not to acknowledge them; however, this thread began in 2010. Since then, much has changed, making a few previously less credible arguments seem more reasonable.

There are three basic models about transition that seem to dominate research. The dominant model is that death is cessation of life, and therefore, of consciousness. For the sake of conversation, I like to think of that point of view as Normalist. Parapsychology is dominated by Normalists seeking to show that the Physical Hypothesis is correct, mostly under the banner of Anomalistic Psychology. Google "What is Anomalistic Psychology?" at Goldsmiths.

Others in parapsychology seek to show that there is a field of subtle energy permeating the physical universe referred to as the Psi Field. I like to refer to that group as Psi+ Normalist because they pose that the psi field, and human ability to sense it, are normal extensions of existing theory. They tend to support the Super-Psi Hypothesis. In that, consciousness is modeled as producing a psi signal which remains in some subtle form in the psi field during and after physical death, and which can be sensed by some people. This group is coming to be represented by Exceptional Experience Psychology. Exceptional because reported experiences are normal but incorrectly seen as paranormal or are instances of psi functioning. Google: "Exceptional Human Experience Network" and "FIRST SIGHT: A MODEL AND A THEORY OF PSI "

The third group in parapsychology, very much a minority, can be thought of as Dualists because they accept the possibility of the Survival Hypothesis. In that, the physical universe is an aspect of the greater reality. Mind is not a product of brain, but preceeded this lifetime and continues after transition. Dualists generally accept psi but rather than arguing that mental mediums, for instance, access information from still living people's minds or residual memory in the psi field, they argue that the information may come from other people or memory, but may also come from still living, sentient intelligence existing in other aspects of space.

To be sure, these three categories are my take on the study. I am trying to establish a common ground for us to discuss the idea of death without resorting to belief. Physical, Super-Psi and Survival Hypotheses are theories which have some amount of support amongst learned researchers. My assumption is that reality is knowable and that objective understanding is possible. The trick is to find a way to discuss these concepts without resorting to faith-based assumptions.

With that said, my personal point of view is that some aspects of the Survival Hypothesis better explain current understanding.

Thoughts?
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#678  Postby Rr6 » March 11th, 2017, 6:03 pm

See philo member Spiral's Void i.e void of human's individual consciousness.

The other true void is the macro-infinite non-occupied space, that, embraces our finite, occupied space Universe.

Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts
cannot only be considered as a void of occupied and non-occupied space i.e. metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts are not space, they involve concepts of space.

Simple to grasp, not complex. imho

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"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#679  Postby Tamminen » June 12th, 2017, 4:51 pm

I try to clarify the central point of my thoughts in post 654, although it seems to be very difficult to put into words.

Wittgenstein says in Tractatus:
As in death, too, the world does not change, but ceases. (6.431)

UniversalAlien says:
...nothing does not exist.

Both are right. But the big question is: What is the world that ceases to exist? Is it only my personal world, or my point of view to the world? Or the world in itself? And is the nothingness that my death means to me if I lose my existence for good, nothingness of all being? In that case nothingness would in fact exist in the sense that now there is something and when I am dead there is nothing.

But, you may say, the world still exists after you are dead, although you are nothing. So it is still true that nothingness in the absolute sense does not exist. And it is obvious that when someone else dies, the world goes on. And if the situation is symmetrical, the same should apply to myself as well.

But the situation is not symmetrical if my death means my nonexistence for good. What is the sense of saying that there is something if I do not exist as a point of reference to the world? This seems to be extremely hard to understand although it is so self-evident. It only requires trying to imagine what the being of the world would mean if I were not there. To imagine such a situation is impossible, because there would be no situation. And it is not very good metaphysics to found one's ontology on something that cannot be imagined.

So there is a paradox here, and the paradox can be solved by making the inevitable conclusion that I do not lose my existence for good although I lose my personal existence. This is pure logic. And my being as the transcendental subject makes it possible that my relation to other individuals is symmetrical after all.

If I, as the transcendental subject, did not exist, there would be nothing, which is absurd. This is the key insight of my philosophy and the premise of all the metaphysical hypotheses that I have proposed on these forums, and if someone proves that it need not or cannot be so, all of my thinking collapses and I am ready to turn my views about reality upside down.
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#680  Postby Greta » June 15th, 2017, 4:12 am

Qualiam wrote:
Platos stepchild wrote:
(Nested quote removed.)

I'm of a different opinion, regarding time. I don't know whether it's fundamental to reality, or if time is how consciousness unfolds. But, at the very least, I believe that time is fundamental to how we experience reality. As such, a timeless reality is beyond our experience. In my youth, I dreamt of a Platonic realm, ethereal and beyond corruption. Despite my best efforts, though I could never imagine how a bridge might span between corruption and incorruption. How might the abutments of such a bridge be rooted in both sides? Surely they would be of this world or the other; but, time cannot blend seamlessly into eternity.


Time does seem to be fundamental to how we experience reality, but perhaps time is truly necessary only when dealing with physical reality. I have experienced moments of "suspended" time, when in a meditative state. During that time, with my eyes closed and not having to deal with physical matter, I am not aware of the passing of time. I am not experiencing time, but seem to be aware of very pure and abstract ideas.

One way to imagine a timeless realm is to think of mathematics. It is an abstract universe of mathematical and geometrical objects that have eternal being. Infinite equations, formulas, theorems etc are there, autonomous and changeless. Minds can discover these objects and use them in the world of space and time, but they themselves are timeless and completely independent of minds thinking about them.

Regarding the Platonic realm, I am very interested in Plato's Theory of Forms. Here is a quote I found from a woman who, in her teens, had an experience which led her to study molecular biology, neural networks and quantum computing to try and understand her experience. She wrote the following at the age of 26 :

"I was aware of having found an original world that we once knew but have forgotten. It always stands on our side, but we do not see it. But sometimes a glimmer opens, revealing a vision of unthinkable perfection and beauty, of superhuman harmony. The unfathomable mystery of life instantly reveals itself, of life we are the beneficiaries."

She later compared her vision with Plato's Theory of Forms. I believe, like Plato, that the transcendental realm of Forms, or Ideas, is our true and ultimate reality. This world, with its space and time and "corruption" is my ego's attempt to separate from that realm and experience individuality, within a dualistic world. But in truth, only perfection is meaningful. It requires vision to know that realm of "unthinkable perfection and beauty, of superhuman harmony." I think that would be at least part of the bridge from this world to that realm.

One thing about Plato's forms. If they are fundamental to our reality, what is to say that something else isn't fundamental to those forms? They may be part of something bigger again. It could be that if, we subscribe to the theory of forms we are akin a gut microbe learning about the whole human and thinking the person to be God, or the entire universe How deep does the rabbit hole go? How many Russian doll shells?

Re: timelessness, consider the perspective of a photon. Having no mass, it travels at the speed of light so it would perceive itself and its surroundings as still, timeless. A photon continues in a timeless state until it strikes an obstacle and then it immediately dissipates. Thus ends what was an endless and timeless existence. That is weird enough - a subjective infinity within an objective one. Maybe a six minute "afterlife" during brain death is an eternity within six minutes?

Then again, perhaps the moment of impact and dissipation of the photon was its life rather than death? That's the moment that any kind of existence began for the photon because now things were happening. For some nanoseconds before complete dispersement, things were happening.
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#681  Postby Darshan » June 16th, 2017, 11:51 pm

Earthellism teaches us that when we die our soul leaves our pulseless body. Clearly every human being has a soul which separates from our body when we die. Then our soul goes to Heaven or stays here on Earthell. Human devils have their souls stays here to die a million deaths and the good human beings have their souls join God in heaven where one may get a second chance at human life if their death was premature. There is no hell below us but here on earth and heaven is above us away from earthell where God, the creator of all love, resides and gives us an infinite love.
God is Love and Love is God.
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#682  Postby Amulya » June 19th, 2017, 5:47 am

Death is to the body. I, the soul, is eternal. When the soul leaves the body, it will ascend towards the land of peace, the place where the supreme soul reside.
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#683  Postby Greta » June 19th, 2017, 9:11 pm

Amulya wrote:Death is to the body. I, the soul, is eternal. When the soul leaves the body, it will ascend towards the land of peace, the place where the supreme soul reside.

This is one of many guesses regarding the question.
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