What happens to us when we die?

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#676  Postby Qualiam » February 3rd, 2017, 5:07 am

Platos stepchild wrote:
Qualiam wrote:I like this point (Greta, post 668 above). I know people who have had near death experiences and they say that while they are "dead," they are in a place of no time. They may describe it differently, because it is hard to describe to the rest of us who are so embedded in the medium of time that we have a hard time imagining no time. But this is why some of them say their entire life flashed before their eyes.

But your point that the passing of time is an observer effect rather than an objective reality is well taken. I think many scientists, especially those familiar with Special Relativity, would agree. This is another reason why I think that ultimate reality is composed of a timeless, infinite sea of ideas, with our awareness sailing over it, choosing which ideas to believe in. And one of those ideas was space, and one was time.

I'm of a different opinion, regarding time. I don't know whether it's fundamental to reality, or if time is how consciousness unfolds. But, at the very least, I believe that time is fundamental to how we experience reality. As such, a timeless reality is beyond our experience. In my youth, I dreamt of a Platonic realm, ethereal and beyond corruption. Despite my best efforts, though I could never imagine how a bridge might span between corruption and incorruption. How might the abutments of such a bridge be rooted in both sides? Surely they would be of this world or the other; but, time cannot blend seamlessly into eternity.

Time does seem to be fundamental to how we experience reality, but perhaps time is truly necessary only when dealing with physical reality. I have experienced moments of "suspended" time, when in a meditative state. During that time, with my eyes closed and not having to deal with physical matter, I am not aware of the passing of time. I am not experiencing time, but seem to be aware of very pure and abstract ideas.

One way to imagine a timeless realm is to think of mathematics. It is an abstract universe of mathematical and geometrical objects that have eternal being. Infinite equations, formulas, theorems etc are there, autonomous and changeless. Minds can discover these objects and use them in the world of space and time, but they themselves are timeless and completely independent of minds thinking about them.

Regarding the Platonic realm, I am very interested in Plato's Theory of Forms. Here is a quote I found from a woman who, in her teens, had an experience which led her to study molecular biology, neural networks and quantum computing to try and understand her experience. She wrote the following at the age of 26 :

"I was aware of having found an original world that we once knew but have forgotten. It always stands on our side, but we do not see it. But sometimes a glimmer opens, revealing a vision of unthinkable perfection and beauty, of superhuman harmony. The unfathomable mystery of life instantly reveals itself, of life we are the beneficiaries."

She later compared her vision with Plato's Theory of Forms. I believe, like Plato, that the transcendental realm of Forms, or Ideas, is our true and ultimate reality. This world, with its space and time and "corruption" is my ego's attempt to separate from that realm and experience individuality, within a dualistic world. But in truth, only perfection is meaningful. It requires vision to know that realm of "unthinkable perfection and beauty, of superhuman harmony." I think that would be at least part of the bridge from this world to that realm.
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#677  Postby Tom Butler » February 24th, 2017, 7:13 pm

New here, so I will try not to rehash old arguments. I do see that some well considered points have been made. Just about every perspective has been taken and it seems disrespectful not to acknowledge them; however, this thread began in 2010. Since then, much has changed, making a few previously less credible arguments seem more reasonable.

There are three basic models about transition that seem to dominate research. The dominant model is that death is cessation of life, and therefore, of consciousness. For the sake of conversation, I like to think of that point of view as Normalist. Parapsychology is dominated by Normalists seeking to show that the Physical Hypothesis is correct, mostly under the banner of Anomalistic Psychology. Google "What is Anomalistic Psychology?" at Goldsmiths.

Others in parapsychology seek to show that there is a field of subtle energy permeating the physical universe referred to as the Psi Field. I like to refer to that group as Psi+ Normalist because they pose that the psi field, and human ability to sense it, are normal extensions of existing theory. They tend to support the Super-Psi Hypothesis. In that, consciousness is modeled as producing a psi signal which remains in some subtle form in the psi field during and after physical death, and which can be sensed by some people. This group is coming to be represented by Exceptional Experience Psychology. Exceptional because reported experiences are normal but incorrectly seen as paranormal or are instances of psi functioning. Google: "Exceptional Human Experience Network" and "FIRST SIGHT: A MODEL AND A THEORY OF PSI "

The third group in parapsychology, very much a minority, can be thought of as Dualists because they accept the possibility of the Survival Hypothesis. In that, the physical universe is an aspect of the greater reality. Mind is not a product of brain, but preceeded this lifetime and continues after transition. Dualists generally accept psi but rather than arguing that mental mediums, for instance, access information from still living people's minds or residual memory in the psi field, they argue that the information may come from other people or memory, but may also come from still living, sentient intelligence existing in other aspects of space.

To be sure, these three categories are my take on the study. I am trying to establish a common ground for us to discuss the idea of death without resorting to belief. Physical, Super-Psi and Survival Hypotheses are theories which have some amount of support amongst learned researchers. My assumption is that reality is knowable and that objective understanding is possible. The trick is to find a way to discuss these concepts without resorting to faith-based assumptions.

With that said, my personal point of view is that some aspects of the Survival Hypothesis better explain current understanding.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post Number:#678  Postby Rr6 » March 11th, 2017, 6:03 pm

See philo member Spiral's Void i.e void of human's individual consciousness.

The other true void is the macro-infinite non-occupied space, that, embraces our finite, occupied space Universe.

Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts
cannot only be considered as a void of occupied and non-occupied space i.e. metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts are not space, they involve concepts of space.

Simple to grasp, not complex. imho

"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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