What happens to us when we die?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Greta
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » March 3rd, 2018, 7:16 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
March 3rd, 2018, 2:18 am
I have never encountered a mind without a body so I have yet to be convinced of that existence.
You do so online regularly :)

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » March 4th, 2018, 1:38 am

Thats like saying a book has no writer or a recording has no musician.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » March 4th, 2018, 5:54 am

I'm not suggesting that disembodied minds go beyond the subjective experience of online interaction :)

I agree to some extent, although it depends on whether we perceive the body. Also, physical objects like books or recordings don't strike me as being analogous to minds. A bodiless mind seems more akin to the musical performance (that might be recorded) than the recording.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » March 4th, 2018, 6:19 am

Digital communication is exactly similar to books or sound recordings and a human mind is guiding all of that. There are simulated people on the net but whatever mind they may exhibit is also a product of programmers who are alive minds. Digital independent thinking is, at the moment, still too totally primitive to be considered as conscious operatives.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » March 4th, 2018, 6:16 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
March 4th, 2018, 6:19 am
Digital independent thinking is, at the moment, still too totally primitive to be considered as conscious operatives.
I have highlighted the key phrase above.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » March 5th, 2018, 12:53 am

No need to emphasize that other possibilities exist. The relatively rapid progress in electronic innovation is quite impressive and if the insane geniuses succeed in replacing organic creatures with electronic imitations there will no doubt be a struggle for dominance and I have no idea what the outcome might be. I am old enough for the personal satisfaction of that conflict to arise long after I will be dead.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » March 5th, 2018, 2:54 am

A matter of "I'm alright, Jan", eh? First there will be melding. We are already somewhat melded to tech. That can only increase. Not sure what death will mean then; I suppose probably much the same as now in many ways.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » March 5th, 2018, 3:27 am

Humans have been "melded" to technology ever since the first primate picked up a rock and threw it at somebody or something else. Neither squirrels or lions or octopuses throw rocks but are satisfied to use teeth or claws or tentacles. Seagulls are reputed to be quite clever with excrement and trigger fish make remarkable calculations with spitting but neither one has advanced to machine guns so we are relatively safe. More and more people are injured and killed by watching their cell phones instead of where they are walking and the delights of nuclear war may reveal tp people that melding may not be a bright idea.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by chondriac » March 5th, 2018, 5:43 pm

Rocks don't run on machine code! Or maybe perhaps they run on tetravalent graphs.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » March 5th, 2018, 6:18 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
March 5th, 2018, 3:27 am
Humans have been "melded" to technology ever since the first primate picked up a rock and threw it at somebody or something else. Neither squirrels or lions or octopuses throw rocks but are satisfied to use teeth or claws or tentacles.
Point taken - excellent!

Could the circle be turning? A bout 4bill years ago biology appeared - lithophiles that are rocks, increasingly turning rock into themselves. Then some of those lithotrophs started eating others rather than rocks, while the former continued to proliferate, converting ever more geology into biology (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElMqwgkXguw - I keep plugging this talk because it's my favourite and relevant to any thread about the phenomenon of life/biology IMO).

Some organisms, such as hermit crabs, would use the geology to act as a body part, while others would use rocks as tools. Eventually a hominid appeared that extended this idea further and increasingly shaped geology to "wear" as if they were hermit crabs creating their own designer shells. The hominids increasingly found different ways that geology could be shaped to achieve what biology could not. They found that they could not only replace their own body parts with such fashioned geology, those parts could be stronger and more capable than the originals.

They would increasingly carry a device with them for communication, entertainment and information accessing, gathering, storage and retrieval - information that was too plentiful or complex for storage in a biological brain. The devices became ever smaller to free up the hominids' hands and save effort, but this meant the devices could easily be broken, lost or stolen, and even temporary misplacement could be highly problematic in some circumstances.

Increasingly, the devices were implanted, and increasingly the integration of the implants became ever more seamless ... you know where this is going ...
chondriac wrote:
March 5th, 2018, 5:43 pm
Rocks don't run on machine code! Or maybe perhaps they run on tetravalent graphs.
... but the machine that the code is a mix of various rocks put together and reconfigured.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » March 5th, 2018, 11:29 pm

To classify snail shells as rocks strikes me as most peculiar as if Michaelangelo's David were a geological formulation.

MICHELANGELO’S DAVID ON ALPHA CENTAURUS IV

Discovered several hundred thousand years
After life was found to be extinct
On the third planet from a nearby star,
The strange rock elicited curiosity, some fears.

One biologist theorized that it had been
A giant form of life, petrified. But samples
Had revealed no organic matter, nothing
To indicate this stone had felt biologic discipline.

A geologist had surmised the surface had been worn
By liquid water – an exotic fluid that, at one time,
May have been abundant on that odd planet,
A theory quite unique for such a place so forlorn.

Gazed upon from a special angle (perhaps the thought is mad),
This form could be imagined to have lived.
A foot, or something like a foot could be at one end
And opposite, could it be a head with eyes completely sad?

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » March 5th, 2018, 11:44 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
March 5th, 2018, 11:29 pm
To classify snail shells as rocks strikes me as most peculiar as if Michaelangelo's David were a geological formulation.
True Jan, and yes, David is a piece of geology. He sure isn't biological, or even organic.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » March 6th, 2018, 12:01 am

On that judgement the Empire State building is a geological construction.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » March 6th, 2018, 1:54 am

That's what technology is at heart - reconfigured geology. At least it was until the expansion of the biotech field. Now it's just reconfigured matter.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » March 6th, 2018, 2:03 am

But all human activity is reconfigured geological matter. Then the word "geology" becomes meaningless as a term distinguishing it from human activity.

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