Higgs Boson Particle

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Joe Hubris
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Joe Hubris »

Scott wrote:I believe the interest in the Higgs Boson has more to do with answering curiosities than the hope of some technologically-enabled commodity using the Higgs Boson, ignoring the possibility information itself can be seen as a commodity.

As for the claim that we have better things we could be spending money on, I agree. Of course, the expensive particle collider and the search for evidence of the existence of the Higgs Boson are only an example of the many ways in which interesting science is heavily funded. Just look at the NASA budget. I would rather see much of this funding and effort go to things like saving the 18,000 children who die from world hunger every single day. On the other hand, there is an argument that these discoveries do help in the provision of valuable public services in the long run, such as in preparing to save us from an asteroid collision or to deal with some hypothetical if unlikely alien invasion or just by being the eventual catalyst to technological advancements that indirectly lead to improvements in more important stuff like feeding hungry children or treating sick people.
I agree with you, Steve. I might add that we cannot know what new technology might result from this work. It's only in hindsight that we can see the connections between a given experiment and a subsequent application of the knowledge that results.

-- Updated July 11th, 2012, 1:19 am to add the following --
Stormy wrote:This observation tells me that expansion from within infinity happened first, in order for the Higgs to gather all that was not yet real, together into existence making it a reality. That such expansion was caused by dark energy acting like the brakes on parts of infinity.. resulting in space and therefore time as we know it, by slowing down from such infinity...
This is a FASCINATING physical and metaphysical idea. I think you are definitely onto something. The Higgs field may be the "prime mover" as it were. It may be the origin of causation. In order for something to be real, it must be finite. If any part of a complete description of something is infinite, it cannot be said to be real. If the description of a thing includes an infinite speed, then it cannot be described by physics. The idea that the Higgs made it possible for things to exist is a very interesting one.

Thank you for sharing this idea! It is my hope that I can write something more considered about this soon.
Belinda
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Belinda »

Joe Hubris wrote, quoting Stormy:




This is a FASCINATING physical and metaphysical idea. I think you are definitely onto something. The Higgs field may be the "prime mover" as it were. It may be the origin of causation. In order for something to be real, it must be finite. If any part of a complete description of something is infinite, it cannot be said to be real. If the description of a thing includes an infinite speed, then it cannot be described by physics. The idea that the Higgs made it possible for things to exist is a very interesting one.
Higgs makes finite out of infinite. Is there then something of infinite which remains after Higgs bosons? I mean, is there sufficient of Higgs bosons to deal with the whole of infinite possibilities, or is 'the whole of infinite' an oxymoron because infinity cannot be whole?
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by A Poster He or I »

Yes, interesting...the Higgs field as a stand-in for the Prime Mover...nice idea, Joe and Stormy.
Stormy
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Stormy »

Joe Hubris wrote.. "This is a FASCINATING physical and metaphysical idea. I think you are definitely onto something. The Higgs field may be the "prime mover" as it were. It may be the origin of causation. In order for something to be real, it must be finite. If any part of a complete description of something is infinite, it cannot be said to be real. If the description of a thing includes an infinite speed, then it cannot be described by physics. The idea that the Higgs made it possible for things to exist is a very interesting one.

Thank you for sharing this idea! It is my hope that I can write something more considered about this soon."

Thanks!

It would make me believe that dark energy is the enforcer here..if you consider infinity like a simple tape, every now and then Dark Energy puts the brakes on the tape as though to allow the Higgs to gather information together for Dark Matter to make real. The brakes on infinity make space creating time for speed to create enough energy to matter, and therefore become real within the observed laws of physics. (reality) Infinity..or dream world probably collects its own thoughts this way..I guess you could say reality is the amplification made permanent from what is really going on, which physics is unable to measure. If they ever get to a Black Hole, my guess is it is an entrance to real time, Infinity itself.
Khalidcustoms
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Khalidcustoms »

ELUSION EXPERIMENT FOR GOD PARTICLE: International scientists said they had found signs of the Higgs boson, an elementary sub-atomic particle believed to have played a vital role in the creation of the universe after the Big Bang.

Peter Higgs, the 83-year-old British theoretical physicist who first proposed the existence of the particle in 1964 as the missing link of a grand theory of matter and energy, what is known as the Standard Model of Physics. The boson is posited to have been the agent that gave mass and energy to matter after the creation of the universe 13.7 billion years ago - leading some to nickname it the "God particle".

I think God doesn't play particles game with the universe. There is no "God particle". CERN scientists are doing elusion experiment for elusive particle. Findings are only traces of illusion of the elusive boson!!! There was no Big Bang.

Khalid Masood
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Xris »

When science becomes religiously motivated we should all be scared. There has been more proof of yetis or loch Ness monsters than this magical particle that now appears to be a field. A field of what exactly? We have become the inventors of myths and legends were invisible black holes are as certain as the sky and big big bangs that infest every philosophical subject like the plague on a dead mans shroud. We appear to be entering a new wondrous age were science fails so imagination and invention become the norm. Madness appears before us like a devoted congregation that has received the message of the lord.Alleluia brothers alleluia
Stormy
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Stormy »

If you have a better idea than that which is propelled from the imagination, science will want to know.
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Grecorivera5150 »

There may not have been a big bang as there may not be a god. There are both negative and positive possible outcomes of both religion and scientism. This is primarily the discussion I wanted to attempt to engage in in this thread. What can we expect as far as momentum or inertia of public policy or private funding with this new information? What will be an acceptable level of investment from public coffers if any? Should these studies now be held up to greater scrutiny by governing bodies due to the potential Pandora's box affect?
Stormy
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Stormy »

Information is the most valuable commodity, unfortunately those who are in the greatest positions to obtain it, fail to see the benefits of sharing it. If they did, they would learn more.

-- Updated July 11th, 2012, 2:49 pm to add the following --

Instead they stunt those who could contribute by turning ordinary language into what might just as well be Latin, so that those who have a greater ability to copy can pick up on, while the rest who are blessed with imagination miss the point completely. Its all got to change.
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Joe Hubris
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

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Joe Hubris wrote:
I agree with you, Steve.
I'm sorry, Scott, I referred to you as "Steve". Please forgive me.
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Xris »

If some fool told you that he had seen a unicorn would you find the need to speculate on the consequences? I love to speculate and give thoughts their freedom to explore but I would never allow myself the pleasure of accepting a series of unproven concepts as the foundation of my profound philosophical reasoning. If the BB had any credibility, I to would, could and I have engaged with you for hour upon hour. Simply because we have spent 29 billion and engaged thousands upon thousands of scientists should we speculate on this particle as if it was the second coming of the lord. We have seen it with all the other concepts that are not conclusively proven they have developed a certainty in all our minds that is beyond reproach and are called upon like the witness of a prophet. You are not advancing anything except the faith in concepts that are taught to our children like the godly will teach their children on the certainty of god.
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Joe Hubris
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

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Belinda wrote:Higgs makes finite out of infinite. Is there then something of infinite which remains after Higgs bosons? I mean, is there sufficient of Higgs bosons to deal with the whole of infinite possibilities, or is 'the whole of infinite' an oxymoron because infinity cannot be whole?
I wouldn't quite put it that way, Belinda. I would say that only finite things are real, therefore, if something has an infinite velocity, it cannot be real, because velocity is one of its properties. By changing the properties of that thing so that the velocity is finite, it can be real.

-- Updated July 11th, 2012, 3:25 pm to add the following --
Stormy wrote:It would make me believe that dark energy is the enforcer here..if you consider infinity like a simple tape, every now and then Dark Energy puts the brakes on the tape as though to allow the Higgs to gather information together for Dark Matter to make real. The brakes on infinity make space creating time for speed to create enough energy to matter, and therefore become real within the observed laws of physics. (reality) Infinity..or dream world probably collects its own thoughts this way..I guess you could say reality is the amplification made permanent from what is really going on, which physics is unable to measure. If they ever get to a Black Hole, my guess is it is an entrance to real time, Infinity itself.
I'm not sure I know enough about Dark Energy or Dark Matter to take a position on its relation to this area of physics. That said, Describing infinity "like a simple tape" doesn't work. The infinite, as a physical entity would have infinite values describing infinite dimensions containing infinite features. The infinite would contain all possible features, some infinite, some finite and some with a combination of finite and infinite features. Only finite things are real. Higgs would allow a subset of the third category (those finite features with infinite velocity) to become finite, and therefore real.

-- Updated July 11th, 2012, 3:28 pm to add the following --
Stormy wrote:If they ever get to a Black Hole, my guess is it is an entrance to real time, Infinity itself.
I think that a Black hole is actually a finite entity. It appears infinite, because the values that describe it are so massive, they cannot be related to other things. The fact that they evaporate over time, supports this idea.

-- Updated July 11th, 2012, 4:03 pm to add the following --
Xris wrote:When science becomes religiously motivated we should all be scared.
I agree, but I don't think that has happened here. Are you alluding to the term "God particle"? If so, I think it should be taken in the sense that the higgs field/boson are what allowed mass to arise, and therefore, could be seen as playing the part of God in Genesis. It's my understanding that the scientist who coined it has regretted it ever since.
Xris wrote:There has been more proof of yetis or loch Ness monsters than this magical particle that now appears to be a field.
I disagree. The Higgs boson is predicted by the "standard model" of physics. There is a lot of evidence to support its predictions. This is just a little more.
Xris wrote:A field of what exactly? We have become the inventors of myths and legends were invisible black holes are as certain as the sky and big big bangs that infest every philosophical subject like the plague on a dead mans shroud.We appear to be entering a new wondrous age were science fails so imagination and invention become the norm. Madness appears before us like a devoted congregation that has received the message of the lord.Alleluia brothers alleluia

I love your imagery so much, I don't want to disagree with you ;-) I must, however, do so. The difference between a myth or legend and science is that one is static and one is subject to a continuous process of revision. Science is a product of the interplay between theory and observation. Since new observations continuously occur, a scientific theory can be challenged and revised at any time. A legend or myth is just a story. That's not to say they are rooted in fact, but they are not scientific in that they are not the product of the scientific process.

It is not reasonable, and I think most physicists would agree with me, to say that the existence of black holes is as certain as the existence of the sky. First of all, the sky is a feature of the Earth, therefore, it is easily observable by anyone on Earth. Since black holes are theorized to exist far away from here, the evidence of their existence is much more difficult since observing them is more difficult.

I'm not sure I understand your point regarding invention and madness and imagination, but please posting!

-- Updated July 11th, 2012, 4:12 pm to add the following --
Grecorivera5150 wrote:There may not have been a big bang as there may not be a god. There are both negative and positive possible outcomes of both religion and scientism. This is primarily the discussion I wanted to attempt to engage in in this thread. What can we expect as far as momentum or inertia of public policy or private funding with this new information? What will be an acceptable level of investment from public coffers if any? Should these studies now be held up to greater scrutiny by governing bodies due to the potential Pandora's box affect?
I don't think "scientism" is a thing.

This will probably have a minimal effect on public policy and a positive one. The public would have perceived not finding the Higgs as a failure, fairly or not. The fact that they did find it will be seen as a success by some.

What do you mean by "greater" scrutiny? Greater than what?
Stormy
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Stormy »

To evaporate is to expel, if they do expel they do so to infinity, unless they acquire too much matter and vomit, go phaser; I describe infinity in that way just to simplify what is beyond comprehension. The irony is, it would be beyond are smallest look, that space and time would be outside it, time out, reality within time, yet the reason hidden within something as small as a thought. I guess.
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Xris »

I propose that there never was a BB, that black holes dark matter and certain quantum particles such as the god particle are illusions that have developed a certainty that we only see in the devout faiths. So any speculative reasoning on any level needs to be tempered with caution. The defence of any one hangs on the other, so if the BB has any reasonable doubts then they all fall victim to the same doubts. Would we, could we explain the god particle without it. Has dark matter or energy any reason to exist without it. Would black holes just as magically disappear if the BB became simply a catholics priests dream of creation.
Stormy
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Re: Higgs Boson Particle

Post by Stormy »

I believe that all things are possible. "That not all that counts can be counted, and that not all that can be counted counts." I guess.
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