Philosophy Discussion Forums

I felt it was kind of a toss up for this between the science forum or the religion forum and ended up going with this one. I chose this forum because I am mostly concerned with what other thinkers feel the impact of this discovery will have on the ongoing struggle for meaning between the sciences and religion.

I am going to post a link to a short article from the New York times. I am sure there is more information on this by now but I just wanted to get the discussion going.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/05/scien ... wanted=all


Its my sincere hope that we don't see a bunch of national governments throwing tuns of cash into developing bigger colliders in order to try and rush some useful extraction of a particle to the market place. It is an interesting discovery and could lead to amazing things but i think the world has lots of other issues it needs to be focusing its energy and effort on right now.

Isolating the Higgs boson is only the start: How do you mass-produce them and create stable Higgs fields that can be technologically manipulated? It's probably a long way off till we figure that out. After the discovery of the electron, It took almost 40 years, if I recall, before it found application in technology specifically for its particle properties (as opposed to its function as electrical current which did not require isolating the electron per se). And electrons are relatively easy to isolate!

Eventually, if we can lower the cost of how to isolate and produce Higgs bosons, then I'm speculating that the manipulation of Higgs fields is a potential gateway to anti-gravity technology. Just off the top of my head that would revolutionize every form of transportation from automobiles to interplanetary spacecraft.

I believe the interest in the Higgs Boson has more to do with answering curiosities than the hope of some technologically-enabled commodity using the Higgs Boson, ignoring the possibility information itself can be seen as a commodity.

As for the claim that we have better things we could be spending money on, I agree. Of course, the expensive particle collider and the search for evidence of the existence of the Higgs Boson are only an example of the many ways in which interesting science is heavily funded. Just look at the NASA budget. I would rather see much of this funding and effort go to things like saving the 18,000 children who die from world hunger every single day. On the other hand, there is an argument that these discoveries do help in the provision of valuable public services in the long run, such as in preparing to save us from an asteroid collision or to deal with some hypothetical if unlikely alien invasion or just by being the eventual catalyst to technological advancements that indirectly lead to improvements in more important stuff like feeding hungry children or treating sick people.

On the other hand, there is an argument that these discoveries do help in the provision of valuable public services in the long run, such as in preparing to save us from an asteroid collision or to deal with some hypothetical if unlikely alien invasion or just by being the eventual catalyst to technological advancements that indirectly lead to improvements in more important stuff like feeding hungry children or treating sick people.

The geological record shows evidence of no less than seven extinction-level events in Earth's distant past. It is most likely a question of when, not if, another comet from the Oort Cloud intersects with earth's orbit right about the time our planet is in its path. If 1000 years from now--thanks to research set in motion today--we can shoot a "Higgs beam" at the comet to reduce its mass and thereby deflect its orbit, then our descendents will still have a reason to figure out how to feed hungry children and treat sick people.

If we had spent 25billion dollars, recruited 10,000 engineers and scientist on research into cold fusion or the cure for cancer, would we be expecting more than a possibility that we might just have success? I as you all know I am a total skeptic on the whole process and it was confirmed when I read the article. I am supposed to have to believe in another concept the BB before I can even start to have faith in the god particle. This is some damned expensive Emperor's new clothes.Could anyone actually admit failure?

Without the Higgs field, as it is known, or something like it, all elementary forms of matter would zoom around at the speed of light, flowing through our hands like moonlight. There would be neither atoms nor life. (NYT) Thanks for the reference to the NYT article which also refers the Higgs boson as cosmic molasses. I am left with the primitive and uneducated impression that the Higgs boson is that which makes things out of chaos. Is this impression correct enough? If not I will have to shut up.

Belinda wrote:Without the Higgs field, as it is known, or something like it, all elementary forms of matter would zoom around at the speed of light, flowing through our hands like moonlight. There would be neither atoms nor life. (NYT) Thanks for the reference to the NYT article which also refers the Higgs boson as cosmic molasses. I am left with the primitive and uneducated impression that the Higgs boson is that which makes things out of chaos. Is this impression correct enough? If not I will have to shut up.

The questions that follow from this strange concept has to be asked. What keeps this god particle together? What gives it the mass to examine? Is there another allusive particle waiting to be found or is it a concept beyond redemption.

Xris! I thought you were a good atheist like me

My intuition is telling me that this particle is related to the concept of dark matter in some way. I imagine this particle as a membrane that extracts dark matter as its forced into this universe and extracts regular matter as it is forced into the dark matter universe. Almost like the interplay between oxygen and carbon dioxide on our planet but on an intergalactic scale.

Grecorivera5150 wrote:My intuition is telling me that this particle is related to the concept of dark matter in some way. I imagine this particle as a membrane that extracts dark matter as its forced into this universe and extracts regular matter as it is forced into the dark matter universe. Almost like the interplay between oxygen and carbon dioxide on our planet but on an intergalactic scale.

Dark matter depends on the belief in the BB. It was invented to secure an expanding universe. So one concept that has not been proven attempts to support more and more concepts till we have layer upon layer of false conclusions.

Grecorivera5150,

I like your view. I have long felt intuitively that the metaphors of Dark Matter and the new Dark Energy are being bandied about too literally, and that they are a much more fundamental aspect of space-time, existing in concert with every atom of normal matter, rather than just the "things" they are usually posited to be to explain gravitational aberrations.

And if we stir the water the mud rises and we pretend to see what is not there.God like particles,the Biggest Bang, dark matter, black holes swirl in the muddy waters like unicorns in a mythical world where anything is possible.

This observation tells me that expansion from within infinity happened first, in order for the Higgs to gather all that was not yet real, together into existence making it a reality. That such expansion was caused by dark energy acting like the brakes on parts of infinity.. resulting in space and therefore time as we know it, by slowing down from such infinity that all should take their place. Our universe may just be as a bubble amongst many others, in which the only thing which separates us, is that which slowed us down to begin with in order to be...or the only thing may be infinity itself from which we are separated from, until death. Like a dream world which things can be without being, time space and speed are not obstacles, but rather sense..whose will it is to put the brakes on for dear life in order to make real sense of what goes on there. I guess its up to us whether we live the dream, or leave the nightmare behind for the sum of all things. Dark Matter, that almighty ghost in the end may be the real us. These are thoughts on how the outcome confirms my own suspicions, from what I can gather, each one has their own, in the end maybe its the thought that counts.

Thoughts are important but when we form beliefs on unproven concepts we are trusting in faith not science.

Xris, I think we get it. This is all just conjecture. We are speaking of potential possibilities. I appreciate your steadfast diligence to try keep us grounded in the physical realm but I don't believe in anything unless it can punch me in the face. I am just tossing around some ideas.