What is beauty?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Steve3007
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Steve3007 »

Stephen C Pedersen:
Is there beauty in mathematics? One of the qualities is elegance, is that a face of beauty? Is truth a form of beauty? Abstract truths that is, which Pythagoras dedicated his life to find.
The beauty that Pythagoras saw in mathematics is an interesting example of the way that an obsession with what we perceive as beauty can take us further from truth. So it perhaps suggests that beauty is not always truth.

When Pythagoras discovered the mathematical proof that the square-root of two is an irrational number (a number than cannot be expressed as a ratio of two whole numbers) the instinct was to suppress this knowledge because irrational numbers were thought to fall short of the criteria for true mathematical beauty.

This ancient Greek obsession with the beauty of perceived mathematical perfection had long tentacles that stretched down the centuries, perhaps most famously to Johannes Kepler. He took another beautiful ancient Greek mathematical proof - the 5 platonic solids - and tried to fit them to the orbits of the then-known extraterrestrial planets, insisting also that they must move in perfectly circular orbits. When Kepler used Tycho Brahe's observational data to come to the important realisation that the planets actually travel in elliptical orbits, and when he came up with his set of laws to describe that elliptical motion, it took him a long time to accept his own findings. He was still infected by the idea that a circle is somehow more "perfect" than an ellipse.

It's interesting to see cases like this as exemplars of the double-edged sword that is the pursuit of beauty in mathematics and physics. It can both drive us forward and blind us. If Kepler had known that his work would then go on to be used by Newton to create the beautifully simple Theory of Universal Gravitation, perhaps he would have regarded those "ugly" ellipses as a temporary stage that had to be passed through in order to reach order and simplicity again?
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Rr6
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Rr6 »

[quote="Steve3007It's interesting to see cases like this as exemplars of the double-edged sword that is the pursuit of beauty in mathematics and physics. It can both drive us forward and blind us. [/quote]

Both are true. What is blind is those who do not understand that our finite, occupied space Universe contains tainted versions ideal/perfect.
http://geometrymatters.tumblr.com/post/ ... onic-solid
...."1) The icosahedron Platonic solid; 2) a chlorophyll protein from a pea ; 3) Circogonia icosahedra radiolaria (a single cell organism living in water); 4) also a radilarian organism; 5) the AIDS virus; 6) ancient roman dice; 7) a drawing of a hyperbolic icosahedron."

Tainted versions of all five regular/symmetrical polyhedra are found in Universe as radiolaria. There exist animals poop cubes.

The list goes on. They called Bucky when they discovered virus has icosahedral shells.

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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Hereandnow
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Hereandnow »

If you use math to figure your utility bill, then beauty is not in the figuring as such; but if you turn your attention as you calculate to the grace or form of the procedure, you summon into existence beauty. Mathematics considered AS beautiful IS beautiful. This applies to many things, save those that exhibit disqualifyingly repulsive qualities. Then, even here, can one be conditioned to see beauty in, say, an ogre's face? Or a pile of feces? How about math done badly? Here, the failure to work a proof is shown through an implicit perfection that attends in the comparison.

Of course, what is beauty? Beauty is what elicits a positive aesthetic response. This latter is an unanalyzable entity.
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LuckyR
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by LuckyR »

On the question of whether beauty is subjective or objective, it depends on your perspective. If you are looking within a dependable group (jazz aficionados, breast men, etc) beauty can be objective, that is quantifiable and predictable. OTOH if you are speaking of very large groups (people in California, or species on planet Earth), beauty is neither quantifiable nor predictable and thus appears subjective, even though given enough computing power, it might actually be objective.
"As usual... it depends."
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Rr6
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Rr6 »

Discovering a fundamental pattern for complex biological life if not all life is beauty. imho

Below I point out the spinal chord of my numerical sine-wave pattern ^v^v^v as defined by the two inside lines/levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 etc....also as abstract great circle center of torus tube.

I've made clear previously, how the jtter-bug folds into 6, or more exotic shape, including the double-sine wave pattern we find wit electric magnetic radiation ex ^v as expressed with texticon.

What I did not make clear, is that, there is a central set of 8 chords, bundled two half sets of 4 each. With each of 4 double-bonded triangles attached to those 4 chords each. ^v with line lateral/horizontal line, not shown

Those 4 triangles ( two left/top and two right/bottom ) are basic blueprint for all four pedic like mammals ( see cetaceans side arms and tail flukes ) and,

when one set of two is turned perpendicular to other set of two we have primary set of side fins with tail fin at 90 degrees to side fins. Yes fish and sharks have a addditonal fins but these four are primary. imho See also newly discovered fish with pelvisnytimes.com/2016/03/25/science/research ... n&_r=2

The other aspect of the jitterbug { see link http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergeti ... f6008.html} 4 triangle quadra-pedic like set, is 8 chords central to those four triangles as the spinal chord for complex vertbraeic animals. The jitterbug in any of these above mentioned configurations, will articulate in middle.


..1.......5.7.....11...13.......17...19.........23 ..25.......29...31.........35...37.........41...43 .........47....49
.


0..........6..........12.............18........... ...24.............30................36............ ...42...............48......
^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
......3........9..............15...............21. ............27.............33................39... .............45..................


....2..4.....8.10........14...15.........20...22.. .....26..28........32...34.........38....40....... ...44..46.........50....



This following pattern is a birds-eye cross-sectional view of a torus would look that as derived from numerical pattern above, but as closed loop;

( (( ( ) )) )

Where the two red lines { abstract great circles } are the top/peaks and trough/valleys. of 0, 6, 12, 18 and 3, 9, 15 and 21 respectively.
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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Leon
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Leon »

In the Dutch language there's a connection between beautifull and clean, cleanliness.

Maybe instead of clean "pure" can be used. "Purity". Or otherwise a connection can be made with "tidy".

It seems there's a lot to learn from studying different languages. Also the ancient Greek or Latin.
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Stephen C Pedersen
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Stephen C Pedersen »

Steve3007 wrote:Stephen C Pedersen:
Is there beauty in mathematics? One of the qualities is elegance, is that a face of beauty? Is truth a form of beauty? Abstract truths that is, which Pythagoras dedicated his life to find.
...

It's interesting to see cases like this as exemplars of the double-edged sword that is the pursuit of beauty in mathematics and physics. It can both drive us forward and blind us. If Kepler had known that his work would then go on to be used by Newton to create the beautifully simple Theory of Universal Gravitation, perhaps he would have regarded those "ugly" ellipses as a temporary stage that had to be passed through in order to reach order and simplicity again?
I loved your examples. We often do want perfect harmony to describe our dappled world. All that aside, that is when we try to objectify the subjective. It's always going to be messy when we try to put mathematical harmony up to the real dirty world of what is perceived. Abstract, subjective, mental ides are substitutes for what we actually experience I believe. Its the rift between conceptions and perceptions.

I still believe there is beauty in harmony though. This relational property that we try to get right. Maybe beauty does exist, but that it is subjective and mental and abstract like the Pythagorean theorem. Just like our cognitive, affective and moral side of our souls, and the beauty is trying to get the blend right. Just the idea of thinking about beauty makes one ponder that the possibility is possible, just as free will is possible, but we can't be sure because we're so skeptical as a species, which is great!
I believe beauty does exist independently, because we would still wish it to be even if beings weren't around to enjoy it, which would be even better if they were. I don't know, maybe we are the cosmos speaking for itself, and in doing so, we if take a step back, then why are we thinking about it so much? I believe much of beauty is relative, but I think Plato had it quite right in the Symposium when he spoke of an independent beauty that existed beyong the percipient-- that Beauty absolute that lady Diotima speaks of. If it does exist I don't believe it could exist in the world of mere apples, oranges and chairs, but in something more transcendent.
None of this has been critical though. Feel free to add. I'm just optimistic.
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Rr6
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Rr6 »

Leon wrote:In the Dutch language there's a connection between beautifull and clean, cleanliness.
Maybe instead of clean "pure" can be used. "Purity". Or otherwise a connection can be made with "tidy".
It seems there's a lot to learn from studying different languages. Also the ancient Greek or Latin.
My mother used to say, cleanliness is next to Godliness. My friend asked her if that was in the Bible. She thought for sure it was, however, she could never find it in the Bible.

A place for everything and everything in its place is another old saying... Ben Franklin?.... that goes with your definition of beauty Leon.

Dirt on shiny new car does not belong there, it belongs on the ground.

In a few jobs Ive had, I finally came to a realization, that, when organizing stuff,--- and to borrow a phrase from mother Teresa, --- I consider myself doing something beautiful for God. On some occasions, believing that has helped me make it through my day.

r6
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Leon
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Leon »

Rr6 wrote: A place for everything and everything in its place is another old saying... Ben Franklin?.... that goes with your definition of beauty Leon.

Dirt on shiny new car does not belong there, it belongs on the ground

r6
Everything in place...

Maybe it's about proportions too.
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LuckyR
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by LuckyR »

Rr6 wrote:
Leon wrote:In the Dutch language there's a connection between beautifull and clean, cleanliness.
Maybe instead of clean "pure" can be used. "Purity". Or otherwise a connection can be made with "tidy".
It seems there's a lot to learn from studying different languages. Also the ancient Greek or Latin.
My mother used to say, cleanliness is next to Godliness. My friend asked her if that was in the Bible. She thought for sure it was, however, she could never find it in the Bible.

A place for everything and everything in its place is another old saying... Ben Franklin?.... that goes with your definition of beauty Leon.

Dirt on shiny new car does not belong there, it belongs on the ground.

In a few jobs Ive had, I finally came to a realization, that, when organizing stuff,--- and to borrow a phrase from mother Teresa, --- I consider myself doing something beautiful for God. On some occasions, believing that has helped me make it through my day.

r6
Yeah, there are folks who are into "organization" but it is far from a universally desirable trait. Dirt on an otherwise shiny new car... doesn't matter if the car is worth doing with what cars are designed to do: be driven. OTOH, if it doesn't do that job well (most cars) then instead of doing it's primary job, it can do a secondary job: be an object of affection, so in that context dirt would be a negative and keeping it clean would be a positive.

My car is dirty, BTW...
"As usual... it depends."
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Alec Smart
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Alec Smart »

Rr6 wrote: I've made clear previously,
I must have missed that post.
Smart by name and Alec by nature.
Anthony Edgar
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Anthony Edgar »

I see a pretty girl and I can't take my eyes off her. I see an ugly girl and I don't need to look at her again. The anatomical differences between a pretty face and an ugly face are probably very small and subtle, but they make all the difference. It's as if my brain is wired to accept a certain facial arrangement as beautiful; any face that doesn't fit the "mould" is perceived as not-beautiful.

Why is a flower perceived as beautiful but a rock isn't?
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Dolphin42
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Dolphin42 »

I'd guess that perceived beauty in human faces is generally correlated with health and fertility. Uneven skin tone: possible illness. Asymmetry: Possible uneven growth in the womb. Big eyes ... er ... ability to see in the dark? (OK, I'm stretching there.)

The more interesting question, I think, is why we often rebel against these ideals of beauty. Why, for example, do I find the appearance of Melania Trump horrifying? (Sorry Melania. Nothing personal. I'm sure you're a lovely person.) Perhaps that reflects the need to keep the gene pool mixed up and recognise the need for diversity in survival?
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Rr6
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by Rr6 »

Anthony Edgar wrote:Why is a flower perceived as beautiful but a rock isn't?
Depends on the rock and the context/background of where it is located.

All flowers have color that may contrast with the background so there is context of where the flower is located also. Flowers sprout out from ground or even seeming rock so they literally stand-out.

Flowers in some ways, not nearly as much, like young animals, there all just so dame cute.

Babes and infant cause adults to make strange noises strange facial features at the baby or infant.

I was in Krogers, and see this woman that has what appears a irregular shape black area along side of and half of where here nose is supposed to be. It looked as those most or all of here nose was missing and there was a irregular shaped but curved black hole there.

I was fascinated and really wanted to get closer and see if this was actually a hole in her head, that was lined with some black material. She has some other facial features that may have also been a couple other smaller of these black indentations ares.

She looked someone who might be created or movie set using digital altering of her face. I really wanted to get closer to her find out exactly what that good size blacken area was exactly.

r6
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LuckyR
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Re: What is beauty?

Post by LuckyR »

Dolphin42 wrote:I'd guess that perceived beauty in human faces is generally correlated with health and fertility. Uneven skin tone: possible illness. Asymmetry: Possible uneven growth in the womb. Big eyes ... er ... ability to see in the dark? (OK, I'm stretching there.)

The more interesting question, I think, is why we often rebel against these ideals of beauty. Why, for example, do I find the appearance of Melania Trump horrifying? (Sorry Melania. Nothing personal. I'm sure you're a lovely person.) Perhaps that reflects the need to keep the gene pool mixed up and recognise the need for diversity in survival?
That was probably true before mass media. Nowadays, while your comment has it's place, it can't really compete with the bombardment of advertisers/celebrities.
"As usual... it depends."
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