Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to Islam

Discuss the April 2015 philosophy book of the month, "The No-Nonsense Guide to Islam" by Ziauddin Sardar

How do you rate The No-Nonsense Guide to Islam?

1 star - poor, recommend against reading it
1
33%
2 stars - fair, okay
1
33%
3 stars - good, recommend it
1
33%
4 stars - excellent, amazing
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 3

ScottieX
Posts: 220
Joined: September 6th, 2014, 4:33 pm

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 17th, 2015, 4:32 pm

Spectrum wrote: The latter is responsible for all the terrible violence and evils that SOME Muslims has committed to date and will be a serious threat to humanity in the future.
It seems to me that this is self controlling. Of muslims that I talk to in my western country (with education and freedom), almost no one approves of ISIS or Sharia law. And the countries that apply fundimentalist law are economic disaster zones.

ISIS, Afghanistan and Somalia are never going to be a serious threat to humanity, the US is only worried about them because they are the worry you have when you don't really have anything to worry about.

Serious threats to Humanity are a crazy Russian leader, a crazy Chinese leader or a crazy US leader. Historically threats (although not threats to humanity per se) have been Japan, Hitlers Germany - nominally Christian and Buddhist.

There is a systematic reason why they have not been Islamic - simply the Islamic states were not up to doing what Japan and Germany did (becoming strong very fast) and they still are not up to it. Simply one doesn't gather power by converting ones country into a cultural backwater and one isn't a major threat if one doesn't have much power.
Islam is inspiring a significant SOME to commit terrible evils around the world. To find out the reason for these Islam related evils and to critique the Quran one has to be intellectual fair to understand [not necessary agree with] it in detail. It is detestable and unappealing for me to read the Quran but I have to master it to ensure my views on its are credible.
One interesting thing about religion is how people can read a religious text often and yet have opinions about what it says that are quite different from a common sense reading of it. For example many Christians will read the bible every day and yet their understanding of it will be a sanitized cartoon view as if they had never read it and instead had only watched childrens cartoons and listened to sermons from pastors.

In the west, despite the fact that I agree the quoran is more violent than the bible and the Tora, I would be inclined to say that Islamic people are probably more law abiding citizens than non Islamic people and probably less likely to try to kill you.

This may not be true everywhere, but that is not essential to my point - which is that it seems that if the religious leaders spend their time picking out all the sanitized bits of their religious text they can create a 'positive' effect almost regardless of the actual source text.

Wayne92587
Posts: 1583
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Wayne92587 » April 17th, 2015, 10:11 pm

ScottieX

"There is a systematic reason why they have not been Islamic - simply the Islamic states were not up to doing what Japan and Germany did (becoming strong very fast) and they still are not up to it. Simply one doesn't gather power by converting ones country into a cultural backwater and one isn't a major threat if one doesn't have much power."

Wayne wrote; neither did Hitler's Germany.

-- April 17th, 2015, 7:31 pm --

Scottie X wrote'

"It seems to me that this is self controlling. Of muslims that I talk to in my western country (with education and freedom), almost no one approves of ISIS or Sharia law. And the countries that apply fundimentalist law are economic disaster zones."


Wayne wrote; Absolutely True!

The Spirit, the Nature of Islam being that of a Beast, Male Chauvinistic Pig, is in need of Salvation; the Savior of Islam being Allah, the God of Compassion, even though Compassion is born of Woman.

ScottieX wrote; ISIS, Afghanistan and Somalia are never going to be a serious threat to humanity, the US is only worried about them because they are the worry you have when you don't really have anything to worry about.

Wayne wrote;

I can not find a way to respond to that statement without insulting you, other than to say that is completely absurd: that statement is a one sided, biased, attack against the US, is truly an Insulting statement.

Spectrum
Posts: 4959
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 17th, 2015, 11:10 pm

Wayne92587 wrote:Islamic Law, Sharia, as interpreted can not be associated with Muhammad's intent for Islam. Period.
"Sorry", but none can convince me that the currant interpretation of Islamic Law, Sharia, as having been born of the Islam, Allah, the God of Compassion.
Agree, agree ..agree.
Some Muslims [more rational ones] claim the source of the Sharia Law, i.e. Hadiths are Satanic Invocations:
The Quran informs us that some enemies of the Prophet, described as "human and jinn devils," will fabricate lies and attribute them to the Prophet (6:112, 25:31).
This is precisely what happened after the prophet Muhammad's death; Hadith (oral) and Sunna (actions) were invented and attributed to the Prophet.
Hadith and Sunna are satanic innovations because they:
[1] defy the divine assertions that the Quran is complete, perfect, fully detailed, and shall be the only source of religious guidance (6:19, 38, 114 & 45:6-7),
[2] blaspheme against the Prophet and depict him as a vicious tyrant who did not uphold the Quran, and
[3] create false doctrines based on superstition, ignorance, and indefensible nonsensical traditions.
The prophet Muhammad was enjoined, in very strong words, from issuing any religious teachings besides the Quran (69:38-48).
masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appen ... dix19.html

-- Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:13 pm --
ScottieX wrote: It seems to me that this is self controlling. Of muslims that I talk to in my western country (with education and freedom), almost no one approves of ISIS or Sharia law. And the countries that apply fundamentalist law are economic disaster zones.
You don't seem to be aware of Islam and Muslims as a whole package and your knowledge in this case is narrow. There are Islamic Nations that adopted Sharia [fundamentalist] Law and are within the top 20 in terms of GDP, e.g. Qatar-ranked 1, Brunei-11, UAE-13, Kuwait-16.
photius.com/rankings/economy/gdp_per_ca ... 013_0.html

In additions, you are only relying on Muslims you have talked to and within the US. To be intellectually credible on this point you'll need to be familiar with what is going on in all the Islamic Nations and countries with >1% Muslims.
Islam has potential malignant elements within itself and this is triggered by evil prone believers where appx 10% exist within any population of humans. There are about 6.67 million of Muslims [2.2%] in the US and has been rising since the last 50 years. This means there are 667,000 [10%] Muslims in the US who are violent prone. Not all of these people will commit Islamic related violence, but you should note the rising trend of such violence in US and it can only get worse.
ISIS, Afghanistan and Somalia are never going to be a serious threat to humanity, the US is only worried about them because they are the worry you have when you don't really have anything to worry about.
It is not only the US but the whole world is worried about Islamic related violence.
As a concerned citizen of the world and humanity every one [including moderate Muslims] should worry about Islamic violence any where. I am not sure of your psychological status and I am surprised you cannot feel as a human being of what is going on in the world at the present to the terrible violence and evils acts committed by Muslims.
The Quran show no great respect for life in this world but the hereafter [eternal life in heaven] is more critical to the Muslim. As such when Muslims extremists and rogue Islam Nations get hold of WMDs, MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) will not work.
Serious threats to Humanity are a crazy Russian leader, a crazy Chinese leader or a crazy US leader. Historically threats (although not threats to humanity per se) have been Japan, Hitlers Germany - nominally Christian and Buddhist.
They are a possibility but the average human being in our present age has a greater sense of morality and non-Muslims do fear MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction).
Btw, Japan, Hitler's Germany was NEVER driven by holy texts and religious doctrines at all. In contrast the holy texts of Islam [Quran, Hadiths and Sunnah) explicitly condone the extermination of non-believers in unilateral aggression or in defense. Muslims are extremely sensitive and any small thing is taken as threat to the religion, thus in need of defense, e.g. the cartoon and other cases.
In the west, despite the fact that I agree the quran is more violent than the bible and the Tora, I would be inclined to say that Islamic people are probably more law abiding citizens than non Islamic people and probably less likely to try to kill you.
False, Muslims predictably has a greater potential to kill any non-believers in the West and anywhere else. This can manifest from any of the 10% = 150 million Muslims around the world.
This may not be true everywhere, but that is not essential to my point - which is that it seems that if the religious leaders spend their time picking out all the sanitized bits of their religious text they can create a 'positive' effect almost regardless of the actual source text.
In practice this will not happen especially with Islam. To be assured of eternal life in heaven [with virgins for some], it is only natural many Muslims will attempt to comply as literal as possible to their holy texts. The fact is, the holy texts contain tons of evil elements that condone the killing, oppressions and glaring hatred of non-Muslims in various circumstances.
Unfortunately it is always the minority evil prone religious leaders that are highly motivated and active in most groups in their attempt to be very good Muslims and be assured of eternal life and heaven. The moderates compromised some of the evil elements within the holy texts and thus are regarded as not-so-good Muslims and that is because they are better humans with higher universal moral quotient.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

ScottieX
Posts: 220
Joined: September 6th, 2014, 4:33 pm

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 18th, 2015, 2:17 am

Wayne92587 wrote:Wayne wrote; neither did Hitler's Germany.
But he knew how to get it - rapidly developing ones industry. Is ISIS rapidly developing it's economy? Is Somalia? Iran is the best of the bad bunch but they still don't count for much - Israel could wipe the floor with them - because Israel knows how to develop an economy.
ScottieX wrote; ISIS, Afghanistan and Somalia are never going to be a serious threat to humanity, the US is only worried about them because they are the worry you have when you don't really have anything to worry about.

Wayne wrote;

I can not find a way to respond to that statement without insulting you, other than to say that is completely absurd: that statement is a one sided, biased, attack against the US, is truly an Insulting statement.
It was not intended as an insult to the US and I'm surprised you care to dispute the point.

The US was not worried about the threat from Iraq when the USSR was pointing thousands of nukes at them with good reason. Just like it is deeply concerned about Syria possibly having chemical weapons when this might have been less of an issue for countries in the past for pragmatic reasons.

-- April 18th, 2015, 2:56 am --
Spectrum wrote:You don't seem to be aware of Islam and Muslims as a whole package and your knowledge in this case is narrow. There are Islamic Nations that adopted Sharia [fundamentalist] Law and are within the top 20 in terms of GDP, e.g. Qatar-ranked 1, Brunei-11, UAE-13, Kuwait-16.
Are you seriously scared of Quatar and Brunei, Kuwait and the UAE? You seem to have taken 4 examples of muslims behaving in a generally reasonable manner in order to prove that they don't act reasonably and are dangerous. Regardless, yes they sit on some oil and gas reserves, but they will run out and we will see how they go after that. Or do you think those four countries will get together and conquer the USA, EU, China and India?
In additions, you are only relying on Muslims you have talked to and within the US. To be intellectually credible on this point you'll need to be familiar with what is going on in all the Islamic Nations and countries with >1% Muslims.
No my point was regarding western countries, if you concede it applies there then you concede my point. That the people in the other less developed countries might be more radical was also part of my point. I note however that people in the Congo and Ivory coast are probably radical too.
There are about 6.67 million of Muslims [2.2%] in the US and has been rising since the last 50 years. This means there are 667,000 [10%] Muslims in the US who are violent prone. Not all of these people will commit Islamic related violence, but you should note the rising trend of such violence in US and it can only get worse.
You might be right but I don't think that is a sensible way to try to work out the numbers as if no non-muslims are violent prone.

You should compare the violence rates between a group of muslims and a comparable group of non muslims. Or better yet - violence rates for people who become Muslims before and after. Muslims have a strong foothold in prisons for various reasons resulting in a lot of criminals with high violence rates becoming muslim - which may well reduce their violence rate and yet still make muslims far more violent on average.

but for some not so good statistical data for across country comparison

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/30/7951309/islam-violence
I am not sure of your psychological status and I am surprised you cannot feel as a human being of what is going on in the world at the present to the terrible violence and evils acts committed by Muslims.
I don't think this has much to do with it, you are presenting arguments and I am addressing them. For what it is worth I have a (pretty obvious) solution to the problems were are currently seeing, but that is a bit off topic.
The Quran show no great respect for life in this world but the hereafter [eternal life in heaven] is more critical to the Muslim. As such when Muslims extremists and rogue Islam Nations get hold of WMDs, MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) will not work.
That doesn't sounds like a very nuanced view of how it would work and I think unrealistic.
They are a possibility but the average human being in our present age has a greater sense of morality and non-Muslims do fear MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction).
Push comes to shove and the Muslim leaders fear it too even if they have suicidal followers. One doesn't get to be the leader of a state by being a suicide bomber - suicide bombing pretty much excludes you from ever leading anything again.
Btw, Japan, Hitler's Germany was NEVER driven by holy texts and religious doctrines at all.
Yes exactly.
False, Muslims predictably has a greater potential to kill any non-believers in the West and anywhere else. This can manifest from any of the 10% = 150 million Muslims around the world.
Do you have some statistical evidence of that? Or is to just like "murder can manifest in 100% of all people in the world given appropriate circumstances".
"This may not be true everywhere, but that is not essential to my point - which is that it seems that if the religious leaders spend their time picking out all the sanitized bits of their religious text they can create a 'positive' effect almost regardless of the actual source text."

In practice this will not happen especially with Islam.
But it already obviously does happen. I cant see how you can credibly deny it.

-- April 18th, 2015, 3:10 am --

Also note that the Japanese were into the Bushido code which motivated their suicide bombers but nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki made them reconsider how committed they were to that idea. And the Tamil tigers were Hindu although I suspect largely not motivated by religion to suicide bombing.

Some have suggested that suicide bombing is usually a political activity and also that it is often performed by the individuals who are impaired or weak and is mainly the choice of the planners. Although I suppose we can look at some examples to test that at very least it is often a political activity and those that commit suicide are often those who are easily controlled.

Belinda
Contributor
Posts: 13760
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 18th, 2015, 4:10 am

Sharia Law. _________________

The agrarian revolution functioned because its structure included violence by the aristocratic elite upon the slaves and poor peasants.

Sharia law provided a principled alternative to the aristocratic rule of agrarian society, since it refused to accept a hereditary class system.--------------------------The Sharia insisted that every Muslim was directly responsible to God; a Muslim needed no caliph or priest to mediate divine law and everybody_________ not just the ruling class___ was responsible for the ummah's well-being. ---------------------------- the Shariah was a constant witness to the Islamic ideal of equality that is so deeply embedded in our humanity that despite the apparent difficulty of incorporating it in political life we remain stubbornly convinced that it is the natural way for humans to live together.

Karen Armstrong 'Fields of Blood' ps177-8

The punishments in Saudi Arabia of public executions , and of cutting off thieves' hands, are, according to Muhammad, not to be carried out unless the society is such that the criminal had no need whatsoever to have committed the crime. Since every society is imperfect to the extent that there are people whose needs are sufficient for them to commit crimes, those cruel punishments are , in practice, contrary to the spirit of Shariah . Muhammad's ruling with respect to stoning is therefor identical to that of Jesus about the woman taken in adultery " whosoever has never sinned let him throw the first stone".

Muhammad himself claimed that Islam was a continuation from previous prophets who had advanced the same ethics. And that he was reminding Muslims of what they already knew.
Socialist

Spectrum
Posts: 4959
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 18th, 2015, 6:16 am

Spectrum wrote:You don't seem to be aware of Islam and Muslims as a whole package and your knowledge in this case is narrow. There are Islamic Nations that adopted Sharia [fundamentalist] Law and are within the top 20 in terms of GDP, e.g. Qatar-ranked 1, Brunei-11, UAE-13, Kuwait-16.
ScottieX wrote:Are you seriously scared of Quatar and Brunei, Kuwait and the UAE? You seem to have taken 4 examples of muslims behaving in a generally reasonable manner in order to prove that they don't act reasonably and are dangerous. Regardless, yes they sit on some oil and gas reserves, but they will run out and we will see how they go after that. Or do you think those four countries will get together and conquer the USA, EU, China and India?

I presented the 4 from the Top 20 specifically as exception to your following point.

ScottieX wrote: And the countries that apply fundamentalist law are economic disaster zones.

I am not speculating that those four countries will get together and conquer the USA, EU, China and India. What I am implying in general is humanity should not give in too much to Islam wherever it is. One example is accommodating Islam Laws [applicable to Muslims] as parallel to existing constitutional laws as it is happening in some countries.
What humanity need to do is to defang Islam from politics in all countries like what Christianity is practiced at present.

In the future humanity should strive to wean off organized religions and replace them with net-positive spiritual approaches to deal with the inevitable existential dilemma. This will strip off the collective moral support they get from Muslims from all over the world. Note how some cartoons are drawn in Denmark and Muslims rioted all over the world ending with casualties. ISIS are getting volunteers from all over world waiting to sacrifice their life for martyrdom. These days one [especially so if one is American] has to be very watchful and wary as a tourist visiting Museums, café, supermarket, taking trains and anywhere.
No my point was regarding western countries, if you concede it applies there then you concede my point. That the people in the other less developed countries might be more radical was also part of my point. I note however that people in the Congo and Ivory coast are probably radical too.
I understand your point was with reference to Western countries. My point is this restriction is not helpful for you to understand the full impact and threat of the evils potential of Islam [by some Muslims] on humanity in the future. This is show by your seemingly indifference to Islamic related violence per se.
You might be right but I don't think that is a sensible way to try to work out the numbers as if no non-muslims are violent prone.
You should compare the violence rates between a group of muslims and a comparable group of non muslims. Or better yet - violence rates for people who become Muslims before and after. Muslims have a strong foothold in prisons for various reasons resulting in a lot of criminals with high violence rates becoming muslim - which may well reduce their violence rate and yet still make muslims far more violent on average.
Humanity must deal with all sorts of violence and evils from all sources. Since this OP is about Islam, we should restrict the point to Islamic related violence and nothing else [to avoid going off topic].

Amongst many others, here is a good benchmark we can use to discuss Islamic based violence.
It [25,616] may not be precise and we can allow a 10% margin of error.

Image

Note the 25,616 is counted based on each event/attack which comprised 1 deaths or 180 deaths per event.
It appear the annual number of event is appx. 2,000 events per year.

So the objective of humanity or UN is to reduce to a minimal of less than 10 or to zero per year.
False, Muslims predictably has a greater potential to kill any non-believers in the West and anywhere else. This can manifest from any of the 10% = 150 million Muslims around the world.
Do you have some statistical evidence of that? Or is to just like "murder can manifest in 100% of all people in the world given appropriate circumstances".
10% is a very conservative figure based on the related knowledge I have gathered so far. DNA wise all humans are 96-98% beasts and animals. Humans has an inherent 'fight or flight' instinct plus a 'kill or be killed' instinct which are ever ready to be triggered. The neurons inhibiting these fundamental impulses are very thin and thus most humans can turned murderer or hurt the other person given the right conditions of stress to loosen those inhibitors.

Also note that the Japanese were into the Bushido code which motivated their suicide bombers but nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki made them reconsider how committed they were to that idea. And the Tamil tigers were Hindu although I suspect largely not motivated by religion to suicide bombing.
Suicide bombings did happen but most are not driven by religious doctrines other than Islam. Bushido is a samurai code not from Buddhist teachings [which you listed earlier] Some claimed the Japanese Kamikaze were also influenced by an extreme sect of Zen, but that is not mainstream Buddhism.

-- Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:55 am --
Belinda wrote:Sharia Law. _________________
.....
Muhammad himself claimed that Islam was a continuation from previous prophets who had advanced the same ethics. And that he was reminding Muslims of what they already knew.

Jesus' teaching improved significantly from the OT but Muhammad condemned the Christians and resorted to include in the Quran many violent elements from the OT. So it is very ugly regress in moral and ethics.
The Quran did not include public stoning to death but many Hadiths/Sharia scholars insist to follow the stoning that was in the OT and argued that it was accidently deleted from the Quran. On this matter I would suggest you get familiar with the Hadiths and Sunnah.

Sharia Law may have worked somewhere during some time in the past for political reasons.
1. However basically there is an existential lust element for Muslims to implement Sharia Law.

2. To avoid going to hell and to end up in heaven with eternal life [with virgins for some] a good Muslim must complied as fully as possible as to what is deemed to be God's word within the holy texts.

3. The holy texts [Quran, Hadiths, Sunnah, ] contain commands by God that Muslims must comply with God's Law and since God's words is final and immutable, the whole set of Sharia must be implemented without changes.

4. Therefore to be assured of eternal life in heaven and avoiding hell, a Muslim will be driven to support Sharia Law regardless of how barbaric it is, e.g. flogging in public, chopping of hands, beheadings, even when it is not 2015!

If not for the personal psychological existential desperations, countries with majority Muslims could adopt parts of the Sharia Law which are effective into their constitutional laws which are open to change with time and circumstances. Many Muslims argue that Sharia Law is a good deterrent. This is not a good excuse as those countries with capital punishment still have many no death row.

IMO, if humanity can expose the psychological insecurity of Muslims in their existential 'lust' to support Sharia Law, the world would be a better place without images and threats of woman [usually victim of Muslims] being stoned in public to the enjoyment of some sadists and relieve of angst for some.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

ScottieX
Posts: 220
Joined: September 6th, 2014, 4:33 pm

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 18th, 2015, 7:17 am

Spectrum wrote: I presented the 4 from the Top 20 specifically as exception to your following point.

ScottieX wrote: And the countries that apply fundamentalist law are economic disaster zones.
I admit I was thinking of the term in a less than typical way. Even those 4 states are 'weak' in that sense in that they are just "failing to screw up" being handed many billions of dollars in oil by god.

Calling them economically strong is like if Bill Gates had an economically illiterate son and you call him "economically strong" because he inherits a lot of money.
What I am implying in general is humanity should not give in too much to Islam wherever it is.
So for example we should not buy their oil?
Note how some cartoons are drawn in Denmark and Muslims rioted all over the world ending with casualties.
Mostly Muslim casualties I think. A bunch of muslim protesters shot by the police in Lybia and about a hundred Muslims (maybe protesters) killed by Christians in Nigeria in response to about 16 Christians killed. I think a Coptic christian got knifed and maybe some other events.
ISIS are getting volunteers from all over world waiting to sacrifice their life for martyrdom. These days one [especially so if one is American] has to be very watchful and wary as a tourist visiting Museums, café, supermarket, taking trains and anywhere.
Not really. One should have a think about the odds and if one is less safe driving ones car than one is walking into the cafe then maybe one is over reacting to terrorism.
I understand your point was with reference to Western countries. My point is this restriction is not helpful for you to understand the full impact and threat of the evils potential of Islam [by some Muslims] on humanity in the future.
OK we are talking past each other then never mind... moving along...
Amongst many others, here is a good benchmark we can use to discuss Islamic based violence.
It [25,616] may not be precise and we can allow a 10% margin of error.
Note the 25,616 is counted based on each event/attack which comprised 1 deaths or 180 deaths per event.
It appear the annual number of event is appx. 2,000 events per year.
OK so about .005 of the murder rate which is something like 440,000 per year (UNODC 2012). which means killed for Islam 1/200, killed for some other dumb reason 199/200. I suggest giving a proportionate amount of concern to the other factors.
Suicide bombings did happen but most are not driven by religious doctrines other than Islam. Bushido is a samurai code not from Buddhist teachings [which you listed earlier].
Yup exactly.

-- April 18th, 2015, 7:21 am --

Speaking of highly dangerous groups

http://blogs.forward.com/jj-goldberg/17 ... sts-in-us/

Belinda
Contributor
Posts: 13760
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 18th, 2015, 10:48 am

Spectrum wrote:
Sharia Law may have worked somewhere during some time in the past for political reasons.
Shariah law as expressed by Muhammad is still an acceptable ethical system and way of life. If Sharia were adopted and lived in the spirit of Muhammad the social world would be equitable . What is understood by Sharia in the modern world are politicised travesties of Muhammad's stated intention which is that severest punishments were not intended to take place for the simple reason that there is no society where there is nobody in need.
Socialist

Wayne92587
Posts: 1583
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Wayne92587 » April 18th, 2015, 12:04 pm

Moral Law is not God's Law, Moral Law is an Abomination, is a misrepresentation of God's Law as Man Imagines it to be.

God is Amoral; the Nature, the Spirit of God being Boundless; The only Good Law is not a Moral Law.

The problem with Moral Law is that it is only as Righteous as the interpreter.

Islam has allow men with dirty, unclean, hands to touch, to become familiar with, to interpret Islamic Law, Sharia.

It is the Fundamentalist's interpretation of Islam Law, Sharia, is a problem not only for western World, it is even a greater problem to Islam itself.

The False Prophets of Islam will cause great harm to be brought upon the Islam.

All interpreters of Moral Law are Fundamentalist, Fundamentalism being born of Men having a perverted, distorted sense of Manliness, Machismo; Machismo being the is a sign and a symptom of a Beast, Animal Man, Man that functions on the lowest level of consciousness.

Man has not always been a Humane Being.

The Sign of the beast shown to be the outward appearance of Machismo. The System of the beast, being hidden, deeply impressed into the darkest corners of the Mind, being the mentality of a Beast; a beast being less intelligent than a mere animal.

Machismo being the cause of Man being a Male Chauvinistic Pig; the Fundamentalist Male carrying his pig headed nature, Spirit, Chauvinistic mentality into every aspect of his daily life.

The Fundamentalist Male being sick in the head, sic,sic,sic.

"Fundamentalist" has been used pejoratively to refer to philosophies perceived as literal-minded or carrying a pretense of being the sole source of objective truth, regardless of whether it is usually called a religion.

The Archbishop of Wales has criticized "atheistic fundamentalism" broadly and said "Any kind of fundamentalism, be it Biblical, atheistic or Islamic, is dangerous". He also said, "the new fundamentalism of our age leads to the language of expulsion and exclusivity, of extremism and polarization, and the claim that, because God is on our side, he is not on yours.

Buddhism also has its Fundamentalists.

Spectrum
Posts: 4959
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 19th, 2015, 4:39 am

ScottieX wrote:
(Nested quote removed.)

I admit I was thinking of the term in a less than typical way. Even those 4 states are 'weak' in that sense in that they are just "failing to screw up" being handed many billions of dollars in oil by god.
They may not be super performing economies but I think they are doing fine and the point is they are not lost cause economic disaster zones as you claimed earlier.
(Nested quote removed.)

Not really. One should have a think about the odds and if one is less safe driving ones car than one is walking into the cafe then maybe one is over reacting to terrorism.
Car accidents has been happening for a long time. The current far reaching Jihadists terrorism is a new additional threat [emerged from the last 25 years] that tourists and others has to be wary about.

-- Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:03 am --
Belinda wrote:Spectrum wrote:
Sharia Law may have worked somewhere during some time in the past for political reasons.


Shariah law as expressed by Muhammad is still an acceptable ethical system and way of life. If Sharia were adopted and lived in the spirit of Muhammad the social world would be equitable . What is understood by Sharia in the modern world are politicised travesties of Muhammad's stated intention which is that severest punishments were not intended to take place for the simple reason that there is no society where there is nobody in need.

I wonder how you arrived at your conclusion. You should review the negative consequences of the practice of Sharia Laws in various countries.

Note one of a set of reasons why Sharia is never equitable within humanity.

Top ten reasons why sharia is bad for all societies
answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/w ... op_ten.htm

Women's Rights Under Sharia
An overview of the lack of equality and oppression of women under Sharia - the position of women in Muslim majority societies.
clarionproject.org/understanding-islami ... der-sharia

You must see this to get a feel of what Sharia and its punishment is about. Note the following gory images resulting from the practice of Sharia Law.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Images_-_Punishments

The overall ethos of the Sharia is it operates within a straightjacket, i.e. God's laws are immutable.
Whilst some of the Sharia practices are bent in some countries to meet certain conditions, Muslims are striving very hard for its full compliance to get greater assurance they will go to heaven instead of hell.
Belinda wrote:If Sharia were adopted and lived in the spirit of Muhammad the social world would be equitable .
Even if we have video tape records of what Muhammad did exactly with Sharia Law in the later 600s, it would still be very inequitable. The problem is no one know exactly how Muhammad actually practice Sharia, so it is easily abused. In addition, the Hadiths were compile more than 200 years after the death of Muhammad, so it is very obvious there is a lot of room for corruptions and perversions.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

ScottieX
Posts: 220
Joined: September 6th, 2014, 4:33 pm

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 19th, 2015, 5:17 am

Spectrum wrote:Car accidents has been happening for a long time. The current far reaching Jihadists terrorism is a new additional threat [emerged from the last 25 years] that tourists and others has to be wary about.
Yes it is not a good thing and I would address terrorism as well (once I am elected global despot). Speaking of which - it is interesting that terrorism is an additional threat that emerged in the last 25 years - what new thing do you think caused that and why was it not a problem up until 25 years ago?

Anyway there are lots of things one can do to reduce the road toll. For example managing speed limits. One can also reduce Suicides, Murders and almost every other cause of death via some additional spending on appropriate programs. One should worry about such things and not just assume we are dealing with them all optimally because they are old problems (because we obviously are not).

Belinda
Contributor
Posts: 13760
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 19th, 2015, 5:45 am

Scottiex wrote@:
terrorism is an additional threat that emerged in the last 25 years - what new thing do you think caused that and why was it not a problem up until 25 years ago?
I take it that Scottie refers to Islamist terrorism.

Religions all over the world are besieged by the modern world.

Islam is particularly threatened by the modern world because Islam is particularly unmodernised so that it faces up to and deals with modern problems and rational solutions. The reasons for Islam's not being brough up to speed in the modern world are complex. I may say that I strongly disagree with Spectrum that Muhammad is at the root of the problem.

The modern world and especially capitalist societies with money-based economies are obviously dysfunctional here and now. During the past three centuries economic expansionism by ' Christian' Europeans has laid waste natural resources and traditional cultures of all colonised countries. Many of the colonised people were Muslims. The colonisers, (like the Americans and British in Iraq very recently who failed to provide any structure to take the place of that set up by Saddam Hussein), failed the conquered peoples, many of whom as I said were Muslims. The colonisers left the colonies bereft of resources and proper pride with their states manned by Westerned puppets.

The terrorists such as ISIS and Boko Haram respond to those problems of the modern world by trying to revert to seventh century religion and state. They also add into their unholy mix misinterpretaions of the Quran which, instead of Muhammad's socialist mores, add- in fascist and terrorist mores for social control purposes.

Muhammad relieved women of much oppression: Terrorists and fascists of all religions oppress women.

Muhammad laid out a system of crimes and punishments which was humane and merciful. (Hadith and Quran)but terrorists fail the spirit of those texts partly by cherry picking and partly by literal fundamentalism, but most of all by a belief and a feeling that violence is holy.
Socialist

Wayne92587
Posts: 1583
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Wayne92587 » April 19th, 2015, 11:19 am

ScottieX: # 26

"what new thing do you think caused that and why was it not a problem up until 25 years ago?"

Nothing has changed for a Millennia, the male is intrinsically a Fundamentalist. Fundamentalist Islam has simply become an extreme threat because men with unclean hands have been allowed to touch, to become familiar with, to Interpret Islamic Law, Sharia; Men with a perverted, distorted sense of Manliness.

The Competitive spirit born of the need to survive.

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

ScottieX
Posts: 220
Joined: September 6th, 2014, 4:33 pm

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 19th, 2015, 3:04 pm

Belinda wrote:Islam is particularly threatened by the modern world because Islam is particularly unmodernised
Yes but it was unmodernized and threatened before 25 years ago.
Nothing has changed for a Millennia, the male is intrinsically a Fundamentalist. Fundamentalist Islam has simply become an extreme threat because men with unclean hands have been allowed to touch, to become familiar with, to Interpret Islamic Law, Sharia; Men with a perverted, distorted sense of Manliness.
And they were busy doing this before 25 years ago too.

Of course the land mark event from 25 years ago is the fall of the Berlin wall - which goes to my comment about Islamic terrorism being the problem you have when you don't have a bigger problem. But it is more than that. It is that the US started to act differently, in ways that would eventually lead to the terrorism.

More generally other things that may have mattered are the Rwandan genocide - where the US started seeing events in the world more as moral issues and trying to deal with them as such, and the development of real time TV reporting of the events and especially terrorism.

Spectrum
Posts: 4959
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 19th, 2015, 10:18 pm

ScottieX wrote:
Spectrum wrote:Car accidents has been happening for a long time. The current far reaching Jihadists terrorism is a new additional threat [emerged from the last 25 years] that tourists and others has to be wary about.
Yes it is not a good thing and I would address terrorism as well (once I am elected global despot). Speaking of which - it is interesting that terrorism is an additional threat that emerged in the last 25 years - what new thing do you think caused that and why was it not a problem up until 25 years ago?
Btw, Islamic terror had been going on since Muhammad initiated Islam.
What's new is the Islamic terrorists attack of soft targets to the extent that tourists has to be wary.

What is the cause of this new trend?
IMO, the reason is because the world has been too apologetic with Islam instead of dealing with its truths. Obama [representing the supposedly most powerful nation] is one big culprit when he indirectly displayed subservience to Islam.
Belinda is one good example in this forum. In the past she understood the truth there is evil within Islam but now seemingly has turned around to be an Islamic apologist as with many others.
This surge of Islamic violence is analogically like what happen with some animals, when their 'prey' is scared, run, submissive, nervous, etc. they will attacked and kill them. Note what is happening in Europe now.
Note this Three Stages of Jihad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERou_Q5l9Gw

Basically, an element of the ethos of Islam is to obliterate non-Muslims wherever possible. This is pressured [subliminally] under the threat of going to hell if they do not comply fully with god's command in the holy texts. This is why SOME Muslims has no hesitation killing Jews and Christians for what they are.
Anyway there are lots of things one can do to reduce the road toll. For example managing speed limits. One can also reduce Suicides, Murders and almost every other cause of death via some additional spending on appropriate programs. One should worry about such things and not just assume we are dealing with them all optimally because they are old problems (because we obviously are not).
This is off topic again.
It is obvious and of course humanity has to deal with all the existing [old] and potential [future] threats that it is facing.
This OP is about Islam and what we have been discussing is Islamic terror.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Post Reply