Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to Islam

Discuss the April 2015 philosophy book of the month, "The No-Nonsense Guide to Islam" by Ziauddin Sardar

How do you rate The No-Nonsense Guide to Islam?

1 star - poor, recommend against reading it
1
33%
2 stars - fair, okay
1
33%
3 stars - good, recommend it
1
33%
4 stars - excellent, amazing
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 3

Belinda
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 20th, 2015, 1:27 am

Spectrum wrote:
Belinda is one good example in this forum. In the past she understood the truth there is evil within Islam but now seemingly has turned around to be an Islamic apologist as with many others.
I have tried to find out for myself why Islam is in trouble. I have explained in detail the reasons that Islam is good , and the reasons that all religions are politicised.

I repeat, once again, that religions in their pure form cannot compete with agrarian societies or money-based societies. Nevertheless religions including Islam do carry the ethical message which, simplified , is the Golden rule or variants thereof.

I am an apologist for Prophet Muhammad, if you like. His historicity may be doubted, but even if he were entirely mythical he remains a worthy prophet. It seems to have escaped Spectrum's notice that I have used scholarly sources for what I wrote. I would welcome a more reliable historical perspective from Spectrum.

Many of the people who use Philosophy club are not readers, and some of those who are readers don't read scholarly books. I recommended The No-Nonsense Guide To Islambecause it is mercifully short , honestly sourced, and as entertaining as serious information can be. Apparently nobody has read even this simple source book. It is probably available free to order from public libraries.
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 20th, 2015, 2:19 am

Spectrum wrote:What is the cause of this new trend?
IMO, the reason is because the world has been too apologetic with Islam instead of dealing with its truths. Obama [representing the supposedly most powerful nation] is one big culprit when he indirectly displayed subservience to Islam.
This sounds like a spoon fed political position. Probably straight from the Jar of a republican spin doctor. I don't 100% disagree with you (in that I would have handled situations in a different manner) but what specifically are you saying he did wrong? Also surely you can also accept that Bush Jr also made some huge errors that contributed strongly to the current issues.
This is off topic again.
It is obvious and of course humanity has to deal with all the existing [old] and potential [future] threats that it is facing.
This OP is about Islam and what we have been discussing is Islamic terror.
If you remove your argument from context you cripple your ability to make the point you want to make. But that is OK we can discuss if Islam is a good thing or not. I personally wouldn't cross the road to go to a mosque.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 20th, 2015, 2:36 am

I personally wouldn't cross the road to go to a mosque.
I did, in company with some other lady infidels who were either curious , or downright nosey. The Mosque people had an open day . There was a pictorial display, mounted on those specially made exhibition panels of the natural world and how God had made it. Also a bit about Muhammad and the Quran. We were taken into the prayer room, a surprisingly unemotional place and apart from the carpet of prayer mats had the no-nonsense feeling of some old fashioned parish assembly room. The mosque building and furnishings are such as to remind us that the local Muslims invest a lot of love in the place where they come together to pray, and how Islam is very much a way of life.


The local Muslims, at least, subscribe to the designer theory of God. All very hospitable and welcoming, and in all main respects not any different from your local church.

I have now abandoned all hope of any intelligent academic life in this Midlands town, which is mainly why I so much appreciate all who participate in Philosophyclub. However my intellectual snobbery doesn't stop me appreciating the hospitality of simple believers.
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 20th, 2015, 3:00 am

Belinda wrote:I did, in company with some other lady infidels who were either curious , or downright nosey. The Mosque people had an open day .
I always feel a bit dishonest in that sort of situation. I feel like I have to pretend there is a possibility they could convince me that they are right and not be too aggressive with my description of my own opinions because that seems to be the basis for their hospitality.

-- April 20th, 2015, 3:01 am --
ScottieX wrote:I always feel a bit dishonest in that sort of situation. I feel like I have to pretend there is a possibility they could convince me that they are right and not be too aggressive with my description of my own opinions because that seems to be the basis for their hospitality.
Buddhism can be OK though, due to it's much more inward focus.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 20th, 2015, 3:19 am

ScottieX wrote:
I always feel a bit dishonest in that sort of situation. I feel like I have to pretend there is a possibility they could convince me that they are right and not be too aggressive with my description of my own opinions because that seems to be the basis for their hospitality
.

I understand, and indeed I thought about why I was going and whether or not I ought to go, as I am an atheist. It seemed more important to make friends with the people than to have any sort of theological conversation.

I did actually ask a tentative question of my guide about all the pictures of the natural world, and its relation to God. He made it clear that God was the Designer. I did not pursue it what would have been the use?

I believe in the psychological and social benefit of communal prayer, and I asked my guide if I might join the Muslimas at prayer. He probably took me for a Christian and asked me to whom would I pray. His question illustrated for me that my prayers would be too different from those of the Muslimas, so again I did not pursue the matter.

I honestly don't feel that I was disrespectful of my hosts. I am almost entirely used to not being able to have intellectual conversations about religion and the visit to the Mosque was par for the course. I still like the people. ***************************

Scottie, I am still thinking about your question regarding what was the trigger for the sudden increase in the past twenty or so years in Islamic fundamentalism and the violence that has often accompanies it. I wish I had the answer off pat, but I don't. I will be alert to any info that comes my way.
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 20th, 2015, 5:11 am

Belinda wrote:Spectrum wrote:
Belinda is one good example in this forum. In the past she understood the truth there is evil within Islam but now seemingly has turned around to be an Islamic apologist as with many others.
I have tried to find out for myself why Islam is in trouble. I have explained in detail the reasons that Islam is good , and the reasons that all religions are politicised.
If you are not relying on the details and exact contexts of the 6236 verses in the Quran, your reasons and conclusions are not credible at all.

Buddhism was once politicized but there were no terrible evils from Buddhist theocracy. Christianity was politicized, but the terrible evils were committed by Christians who went against Jesus' teachings. The critical element is the ethos and the evil elements within the holy texts of the religion. Other than Judaism (OT), Islam is the religion that has highest tons of malignant elements in its holy texts and there is nothing to stop SOME Muslims to commit the god sanction evil acts.

I am doing a detailed analysis of every of the 6236 verses in the Quran. So far I noted 2497 or 40% of the verses contain some sort of negativity directed at non-believers in degrees of evil ranging from mild to very serious.

Examples of a few of the worst amongst the 40% of evil laden verses;

2: 191. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

9:23. O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong doers.

9: 29. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9:123. O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

However one must read all the 2497 verses to get an idea of how horrible it is in when taken in totality. When one reads the Quran with the widespread negativity against non-believers one can sense the hatred that is building up within oneself. Fortunately I am objective, but for the threatened sensitive believers it will be real hatred turning to rage for some.

I will be analyzing this 2497 or 40% of verses further in various degree of evilness. There's are another lot of appx 20% of verses which is also presented as negative and a threat to Muslims. These are the verses related to the stories re the Torah and Gospels. Thus 60% of the Quran is directed negatively [in various degree] toward non-believers.

Generally, these 2497 or 40% of verses condemn non-believers as if they are a piece of sh:t with the sanction of Allah to subdue, oppress and kill them if necessary. With this 40% negativity within the Quran how can you counter that Islam per se is good, given that SOME (out of 20% = 300 millions) Muslims are actually committing terrible evils around the world at present.

Also non-believers are posed as a serious threat to Muslims' ability to fulfill their passage to heaven. This is why SOME Muslims are so hell bent on killing non-believers wherever they have the opportunity, and their passage to heaven is expedited and rewards increased if they kill non-believers.
I repeat, once again, that religions in their pure form cannot compete with agrarian societies or money-based societies. Nevertheless religions including Islam do carry the ethical message which, simplified , is the Golden rule or variants thereof.
While the Golden Rule is explicit in the NT, it is not in the Quran. Show me where is the Golden Rule in the Quran? There is not even one verse that show an unqualified empathy or compassion to non-believers. The only time it happen is when mercy [not empathy] to non-believers are subdued or displayed submission.
I am an apologist for Prophet Muhammad, if you like. His historicity may be doubted, but even if he were entirely mythical he remains a worthy prophet. It seems to have escaped Spectrum's notice that I have used scholarly sources for what I wrote. I would welcome a more reliable historical perspective from Spectrum.
Those you rely upon, i.e. Karen Armstrong, 'No Non-sense ...' are Islamic apologists. What you get from them are very bias views. I have suggested you read up the Quran [its only 6236 verses] and make your views on Islam from it nearest available original. Non of the Islamic apologist will take note of the nearly 60% of negative laden verses against non-believers in the Quran. For the worst ones they will argue one must read them in context. Note I highlighted how the 'No nonsense Islam' book misinterpreted a verse to suit their propaganda earlier.
Many of the people who use Philosophy club are not readers, and some of those who are readers don't read scholarly books. I recommended The No-Nonsense Guide To Islambecause it is mercifully short , honestly sourced, and as entertaining as serious information can be. Apparently nobody has read even this simple source book. It is probably available free to order from public libraries.
I stated I read it partly from google-book and pick out an error. I suggested it would be better to rely on the Quran instead of bias secondary texts from Islamist apologists.

Btw, you converted to Islam?

-- Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:32 am --
ScottieX wrote:
Spectrum wrote:What is the cause of this new trend?
IMO, the reason is because the world has been too apologetic with Islam instead of dealing with its truths. Obama [representing the supposedly most powerful nation] is one big culprit when he indirectly displayed subservience to Islam.
This sounds like a spoon fed political position. Probably straight from the Jar of a republican spin doctor. I don't 100% disagree with you (in that I would have handled situations in a different manner) but what specifically are you saying he did wrong? Also surely you can also accept that Bush Jr also made some huge errors that contributed strongly to the current issues.
I am not from the US, thus not into its dualist politics. I am speaking as a concerned citizen of humanity in relation to the terrible evils that is committed by SOME Muslims all over the world.

As I had said, the first thing Obama did after he became President was to appease and implicitly kowtow to Islam. By letting go of the leash, SOME Muslims went wild and the result is what is happening to day. There are many other factors [eagerness in getting rid of Middle East dictators too soon] that contribute the current evils from Islamists but Obama's [representing the most powerful nation] subservience is a significant contributing factor.

What Bush Jr. did was right and effective in curbing the wanton surge of extreme Islamism but unfortunately it was costly in terms of money and human lives. If the US had not got out of Iraq, ISIS would not have been able to capture >50% of Iraq to gain the moral support it had today. Obama should not have been so quick in getting out of Iraq.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Wayne92587 » April 20th, 2015, 11:24 am

What about the Arab, Moor, conquests 623-1060

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 20th, 2015, 3:32 pm

Spectrum wrote:I am not from the US, thus not into its dualist politics. I am speaking as a concerned citizen of humanity in relation to the terrible evils that is committed by SOME Muslims all over the world.
You don't need to be from the US to be spoon fed their propaganda. That you recite it it evidence enough. For example this.
As I had said, the first thing Obama did after he became President was to appease and implicitly kowtow to Islam.
By letting go of the leash, SOME Muslims went wild and the result is what is happening to day.
What did he do here and what alternative policy do you suggest? I am getting the impression you don't even know what he did? What leash did he let go of? how did he kowtow and do average Muslims remember that? I remember the stories but I wasn't impressed by the logic.
There are many other factors [eagerness in getting rid of Middle East dictators too soon] that contribute the current evils from Islamists
Now I strongly agree with this one however you go on to contradict it ...
What Bush Jr. did was right and effective in curbing the wanton surge of extreme Islamism but unfortunately it was costly in terms of money and human lives. If the US had not got out of Iraq, ISIS would not have been able to capture >50% of Iraq to gain the moral support it had today. Obama should not have been so quick in getting out of Iraq.
The US should not have gotten INTO Iraq.

That you could have the position you have on terrorism and yet hold this position here is almost beyond belief. Again I can only assume you are accepting republican propaganda at face value - otherwise it makes no sense.

Another thing is why the US should be expected to spend all its wealth and effort to hold the world together as if the rest of us are some sort of intellectually handicapped children that must be sheltered from reality. Watch how the US intervention allows and encourages other countries to stand on the side line and complain about the US.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 21st, 2015, 1:48 am

ScottieX wrote:
Spectrum wrote:I am not from the US, thus not into its dualist politics. I am speaking as a concerned citizen of humanity in relation to the terrible evils that is committed by SOME Muslims all over the world.
You don't need to be from the US to be spoon fed their propaganda. That you recite it it evidence enough. For example this.
If a serial killer and you do not agree with child rape, does that mean you a like a serial killer? My critique against the evils of Islam committed by SOME Muslims has nothing to do with the US Republicans. I am looking solely at the evils committed by some Muslims as concerned citizen of humanity while the US Republican may have a religious [Christianity] bias and other national political views.
As I had said, the first thing Obama did after he became President was to appease and implicitly kowtow to Islam.
By letting go of the leash, SOME Muslims went wild and the result is what is happening to day.
What did he do here and what alternative policy do you suggest? I am getting the impression you don't even know what he did? What leash did he let go of? how did he kowtow and do average Muslims remember that? I remember the stories but I wasn't impressed by the logic.
Here are few amongst other examples,

Note Obama's Speech to Muslim World in Cairo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_889oBKkNU

Obama bow to Saudi King
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY

My point is Obama and other world leaders should not appease Islam but rather attempt to understand the dangers of Islam as a whole [a perverted view to conquer the world and exterminate or subdue non-believers] and take steps to dampen its collective motivations by tackling the root causes.
Note this claim 'Flag of Islam to Fly over the White House' someday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWh7UPP7b6Q
Other Muslims are claiming the Flag of Islam will fly and dominate all other Nations the world and many Muslims has seen this reality unfolding with the significant territorial gains of ISIS and other Islamist terrorists.
The US should not have gotten INTO Iraq. That you could have the position you have on terrorism and yet hold this position here is almost beyond belief. Again I can only assume you are accepting republican propaganda at face value - otherwise it makes no sense.

Another thing is why the US should be expected to spend all its wealth and effort to hold the world together as if the rest of us are some sort of intellectually handicapped children that must be sheltered from reality. Watch how the US intervention allows and encourages other countries to stand on the side line and complain about the US.
As with Bush Jr. I agree with the pressure he was trying to put on Islam and its terrorist all over the world. However, in principle I agree the US should not have gotten into Iraq to get rid of the then dictator. Since it was committed, Obama should not have gotten out that quickly. Note the reservations they have with Afghanistan at present after learning their mistake with Iraq.

I am not proposing the US should be the 'big brother' in policing the World all the time. My proposal is humanity must find ways to defang Islam based on the philosophical and moral/ethical perspective rather than the political. From there on, humanity should continue to wean off all religions in the future and replace them with net-positive spiritual approaches to deal with the inherent existential dilemma.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 21st, 2015, 2:55 am

Spectrum wrote:If a serial killer and you do not agree with child rape, does that mean you a like a serial killer? My critique against the evils of Islam committed by SOME Muslims has nothing to do with the US Republicans. I am looking solely at the evils committed by some Muslims as concerned citizen of humanity while the US Republican may have a religious [Christianity] bias and other national political views.
No I am not saying you like them just that they seem to control your world view.

regarding the bow - it is the same sort of thing that people do all the time like bush kissing the Saudi King, or various leaders giving various respectful gestures to the pope or whoever. Everyone knows that a handshake doesn't actually mean you like a person and a bow doesn't mean you are subservient to them. It makes a joke of the person who argues that is the case be they republicans or Arabs.

What specifically is your issue with Obama's speech? And do you want him to be unable to engage in realpolitik?
My point is Obama and other world leaders should not appease Islam but rather attempt to understand the dangers of Islam as a whole
I think even if Islam is a danger as a whole - a leader of the US should not have a speech in Cairo where they say that it is dangerous. If they do that then they will achieve the opposite if their aim.
Since it was committed, Obama should not have gotten out that quickly. Note the reservations they have with Afghanistan at present after learning their mistake with Iraq.
I think there is a game being played here. China,Iran and many other countries want order to exist in the middle east, in north Korea and elsewhere. But they don't want to spend any resources to ensure it occurs they do however want the US to expend as many resources as possible. the US in it's pride does all this work for them.

The problem is that the US cannot do this forever - eventually they will be bankrupted and at that stage the other countries will have spent decades sniping from the sidelines and watching the US's failed strategy of intervention.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 21st, 2015, 4:13 am

ScottieX wrote:No I am not saying you like them just that they seem to control your world view.
I am an independent thinker. It is not only with the Republicans, I agree with anyone who has reservations with the ideology of Islam [not Muslims ].
From the way you defend your points, it would appear that you have been subliminally infected by the extremist Islamists virus which is controlling your view on Islam.

regarding the bow - it is the same sort of thing that people do all the time like bush kissing the Saudi King, or various leaders giving various respectful gestures to the pope or whoever. Everyone knows that a handshake doesn't actually mean you like a person and a bow doesn't mean you are subservient to them. It makes a joke of the person who argues that is the case be they republicans or Arabs.

There are a lot of normal kissing, huggings, bowing by many as some sort of conventional greetings.
However no American Presidents have ever bowed to any Middle East kings, Saudi, Jordan, and others. If Obama has bowed to other Kings, then it may seem he is starting his own conventional greetings to Kings, Queen and other royalties. In this case, he bowed to the King of a leading Islamic Nation and together with his other attitudes to them it send a message of implied subservience.

Btw, Islamist extremists do not react to merely a particular instance of bowing. It is based on a culmination from a package of various instances.
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 21st, 2015, 4:46 am

Spectrum wrote:
I am not proposing the US should be the 'big brother' in policing the World all the time. My proposal is humanity must find ways to defang Islam based on the philosophical and moral/ethical perspective rather than the political. From there on, humanity should continue to wean off all religions in the future and replace them with net-positive spiritual approaches to deal with the inherent existential dilemma.
I have gathered from Spectrum's posts about Islam that he deliberately limits his knowledge of Islam to studying the Quran and to a lesser extent the Hadith. I also gather that Spectrum so limits his knowledge of Islam because he believes that all or most Muslims limit their own knowledge of Islam to the Koran and Hadith.

I have maintained that knowledge of Islam involves not only knowledge of Quran and Hadith but also knowledge of history and sociology of Islam, and also knowledge and practical experience of Islamic practice and its relevance to Muslims' social and political lives.

My interest in Islam is scanty. I don't pretend to be a scholar of Islam. Spectrum's knowledge of Quran is too narrow a field for Spectrum to understand the social and political involvement of Muslims in Islam; and also too narrow to understand the economic and historical causes of Islamic traditions. In a word, Spectrum is simplistic.
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 21st, 2015, 5:30 am

Belinda wrote:Spectrum wrote:
I am not proposing the US should be the 'big brother' in policing the World all the time. My proposal is humanity must find ways to defang Islam based on the philosophical and moral/ethical perspective rather than the political. From there on, humanity should continue to wean off all religions in the future and replace them with net-positive spiritual approaches to deal with the inherent existential dilemma.
I have gathered from Spectrum's posts about Islam that he deliberately limits his knowledge of Islam to studying the Quran and to a lesser extent the Hadith. I also gather that Spectrum so limits his knowledge of Islam because he believes that all or most Muslims limit their own knowledge of Islam to the Koran and Hadith.

I have maintained that knowledge of Islam involves not only knowledge of Quran and Hadith but also knowledge of history and sociology of Islam, and also knowledge and practical experience of Islamic practice and its relevance to Muslims' social and political lives.

My interest in Islam is scanty. I don't pretend to be a scholar of Islam. Spectrum's knowledge of Quran is too narrow a field for Spectrum to understand the social and political involvement of Muslims in Islam; and also too narrow to understand the economic and historical causes of Islamic traditions. In a word, Spectrum is simplistic.

This is not the true view and ignoring what I have been posting about Islam.

I take into account everything that is necessary and related to discuss about Islam.
For Islam, the Quran carries the most weightage, i.e. [my approximations] 70%, Hadiths -15% and the others 15%.
The ultimate manifestation of God's grace for man, the ultimate wisdom, and the ultimate beauty of expression: in short, the word of God. If one were to ask any Muslim to depict it, most likely they would offer similar words. The Quran, to the Muslim, is the irrefutable, inimitable Word of God. It was revealed by God Almighty, through the instrument of Prophet Muhammad (peace be Upon Him). The Prophet (peace be upon him) himself had no role in authoring the Quran, he was merely a human secretary, repeating the dictates of the Divine Creator:

"He (Muhammad) does not speak of his own desire. It is no less than an Inspiration sent down to him." [Noble Quran 53:3-4]
http://www.allahsquran.com/quran_source_of_guidance.php


No Muslims will counter the above. You know of any?

It is from the Quran itself that one can verify the historical and social elements of Islam as it depicts the historical impact of the Egyptian Pharaohs, the prophets of the Torah and then the Gospel in relation to the Quran and thus Islam.
The subsequent history of Islam during and after Muhammad's time is not difficult to follow and I well aware of that if it need to be taken into account.

In addition to the above, I have taken into account the following;
1. Islam within human evolution
2. The psychology of religions, i.e. including Islam.
3. The psychological of cult and religious leaders.
4. The evolutionary psychology and neuroscientific aspects of the above.
5. the philosophy of religion and theism.
6. The above in relation to the terrible evils committed by SOME Muslims.
7. The psychology of evil.
Other perspectives.

My current focus on the Quran's 6236 verses is because it is the pivot of Islam. Without focusing and hinging on to this central core of Islam, we will be beating around the bush on the subject of Islam.

The typical Muslims is influenced by their religious leaders who spend years studying the Quran, Hadiths and Sunnah. Whatever the history of Islam they gathered are verified by these 3 main texts. Therefore these main holy texts are the critical sources to understand the behaviors of Muslims.
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 21st, 2015, 6:42 am

Spectrum wrote:I am an independent thinker. It is not only with the Republicans, I agree with anyone.
You are slightly missing the point, the point is that you are using their talking points.
From the way you defend your points, it would appear that you have been subliminally infected
I don't believe I am using extremist Islamic talking points.
There are a lot of normal kissing, huggings, bowing by many as some sort of conventional greetings.
However no American Presidents have ever bowed to any Middle East kings, Saudi, Jordan, and others.
That's nit picking. Nixon bowed to possibly the greatest genocidal leader in the history of mankind (Mao) and you are complaining the Saudi king is a bad precedent? Besides - they probably always bowed in private and out of camera range - it's just basic diplomacy.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 21st, 2015, 10:02 am

Spectrum wrote:
My current focus on the Quran's 6236 verses is because it is the pivot of Islam.
It is the "pivot of Islam" for most Muslims, is a credible guess.

The Quran was not aimed at you, Spectrum. It was aimed at Muslims who at the time of Muhammad's receiving of the Quran were real people of their time and place. You are not one of those people, Spectrum. Your posts reveal you to be under the same illusion as modern Muslims for whom " the pivot of Islam" is the Quran and Hadith and only the Quran and Hadith, fundamentally , and uninterpreted in the realities of present day problems.

Moreover, you are so fundamentally literal in your interpretation of the Quran that you make a ledger of good and bad and reckon the Quran to be fundamentally bad. In doing so you miss the Quran's very long-lasting message that affects all people of goodwill in this day and age. Both the Christian core message and Islam's identical core message has survived as if part of the cargo on a filthy, leaky ,rusty, old ship.

Spectrum, you might be able to appreciate goodness even when it is mixed up with badness.
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