Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to Islam

Discuss the April 2015 philosophy book of the month, "The No-Nonsense Guide to Islam" by Ziauddin Sardar

How do you rate The No-Nonsense Guide to Islam?

1 star - poor, recommend against reading it
1
33%
2 stars - fair, okay
1
33%
3 stars - good, recommend it
1
33%
4 stars - excellent, amazing
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 3

ScottieX
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 21st, 2015, 3:33 pm

Belinda wrote: Spectrum, you might be able to appreciate goodness even when it is mixed up with badness.
I don't know why we would try so hard too see much goodness in the Quran (except pragmatically as a way to convince Muslims to be good). I suppose you can see goodness in anything but it seems largely just a matter of luck in this case. We might as well look in the lord of the Rings for guidance on goodness.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 22nd, 2015, 12:12 am

Belinda wrote:Spectrum wrote:
My current focus on the Quran's 6236 verses is because it is the pivot of Islam.
It is the "pivot of Islam" for most Muslims, is a credible guess.

It is not a guess but an objective inference based on what I have read throughout many years of Muslims' assertions.

The Quran is the only and closest link between a Muslim and his God. If anything is not from the Quran or extended from it, then it is the words and intents of Satan. Every Muslims' act is directly and indirectly related back to the Quran, i.e. the words of God as delivered through Muhammad.

Can you prove otherwise?

I don't think you are up to date with the thoughts and facts about Islam and Muslims since the religion emerge till the present age.
The Quran was not aimed at you, Spectrum. It was aimed at Muslims who at the time of Muhammad's receiving of the Quran were real people of their time and place. You are not one of those people, Spectrum. Your posts reveal you to be under the same illusion as modern Muslims for whom " the pivot of Islam" is the Quran and Hadith and only the Quran and Hadith, fundamentally , and uninterpreted in the realities of present day problems.

Whilst the Quran is for the guidance of Muslims, the Quran is also definitely aiming at me as a disbeliever.
From the perspective of the Quran, every disbeliever is target for conversion, to be subdued or killed. [sub][/sub]The Quran contains 2567 [out of 6236] or 41% of verses condemning and insulting me as a disbeliever and that I should be killed if necessary, especially so when I am criticizing Islam. This is one reason why non-Muslims are killed as if like swatted flies all over the world.

What is odd is you don't seem to sense any empathy and compassion for innocent non-Muslims but rather direct your attention to placating and defending Muslims instead. [Note 80% of Muslims are good people, but they is not the critical threat to humanity.] I think the terrorizing strategy of Islamists on humanity has worked very effectively on you.

The Quran is claimed to be the Eternal Message from God to mankind al-islam.org/excerpts-from-the-holy-qur ... holy-quran
Moreover, you are so fundamentally literal in your interpretation of the Quran that you make a ledger of good and bad and reckon the Quran to be fundamentally bad. In doing so you miss the Quran's very long-lasting message that affects all people of goodwill in this day and age. Both the Christian core message and Islam's identical core message has survived as if part of the cargo on a filthy, leaky ,rusty, old ship.

I did not deny there are good things from Quran and Islam as with other religions. Note my signature below.

I acknowledge Islam is still a net-positive thing to humanity in in various aspects of life but that net-positive is very marginal in the present circumstance. We are at a plateau where the contribution of Islam is turning net-negative very soon and this is because Islam has very malignant elements within itself. This is not a speculation as one can read of the terrible evils that are committed by SOME Muslims all over the world.

It is because of this evidence based impending threat of net-negativity from Islam that drive me to find out the proximate root causes. To find these root causes, one must go to the roots, i.e. the Quran, the Hadiths, the Sunnah, as priority and everything else associated with Islam and Muslims.
Spectrum, you might be able to appreciate goodness even when it is mixed up with badness.

I have always claimed that problem-solving techniques are my forte. When good is mixed with evil, one has to analyze both and weigh their net effects in the past, present and the future. I anticipate there will be more worse evils than good from Islam in the future. The contribution from Islam [by SOME Muslims] is already very bad at the present and it will go worse based on the surge of the inherently evil ethos within the religion of Islam.

The odd thing is whilst you are aggressive in being a Muslim apologist, you decline to read and understand (not necessary agree) with Islam most critical source, i.e. the Quran. I suggest strongly that you read the Quran with serious efforts to ensure your views on Islam and Muslims are more credible and of substance.

-- Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:37 pm --

Belinda, while waiting for you to read the Quran, here's Chapter 1 and 1 (part) for your review.
Hope you read them thoroughly. Right from the beginning, the Quran is already cultivating hatred against non-believers as a threat to their salvation. [note 1:4] There are already 22 verses i.e. 63% out of 35 condemning and inculcating hatred for non-believers from the word go.
What are your views on these?
Note there are 2567 verses in similar tone against non-believers in the Quran.
If you understand the psychological impact of these verses against the threat of their salvation, you will understand why SOME Muslims go all the way to get rid of the threat by acting literally in the killing of non-believers as sanctioned.

Surah 1, THE OPENING
1. In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
2. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
3. The Beneficent, the Merciful.
4. Owner of the Day of Judgment,
5. Thee (alone) we worship; Thee alone we ask for help.
6. Show us the Straight Path,
7. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who astray.

Surah 2. Al-Baqara
1. Alif. Lam. Mim.
2. This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
3. Who believe in the unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
4. And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.
5. These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.

6. As for the disbelievers, whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
7. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
8. And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.
9. They think to beguile [to influence by trickery, flattery, etc.; mislead; delude.] Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
10. In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom theirs because they lie.
11. And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.
12. Are not they indeed the mischief makers? But they perceive not.
13. And when it is said unto them: Believe as the people believe, they say: Shall we believe as the foolish believe? Are not they indeed the foolish? But they know not.
14. And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.
15. Allah (Himself) doth mock them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy.
16. These are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they guided.
17. Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see,
18. Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not
19. Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder and the flash of lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears by reason of the thunder-claps, for fear of dead Allah encompasseth the disbelievers (in His guidance).
20. The lightning almost snatcheth away their sight from them. As often as it flasheth forth for them they walk therein, and when it darkeneth against them they stand still. If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
21. O mankind! Worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).
22. Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better).
23. And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a sura or the like thereof, and call your witnesses beside Allah if ye are truthful. [Pg] 2
24. And if ye do it not and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.

25. And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: This is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.

26. Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants;
27. Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers
28. How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then he will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

ScottieX
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 22nd, 2015, 2:43 am

Spectrum wrote: This is one reason why non-Muslims are killed as if like swatted flies all over the world.
It seems like the vast majority of people killed by fundamentalist Islamic violence are Islamic people. Mostly there is terrorism in Islamic countries where the only people the crazies can get their hands on are Islamic people.

When it is in boarder countries with large non muslim populations the non-Muslims are not as helpless as flies. For example Central African Republic, the Gujarat violence, south of Thailand, Chechnya or Hamas vs Israel, Serbia vs Bosnia etc.

From a Muslim perspective it might seem like they were getting disproportionately slaughtered on almost every boarder every time they get in a fight by every religion they have a fight with.

Belinda
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 22nd, 2015, 3:54 am

Spectrum, I am a little ashamed of myself for being bored reading the Quran. I read the extracts that you posted with pleasure.

However you have scored an own goal. I interpret the matter in those extracts as good, and applicable to today's problems, even whilst I disapprove of the references to God as Designer. I interpreted the Quran extracts as injunctions to Muhammad's Muslims to be good people and not bad people. Good people would be submissive to Allah's prescribed good behaviour, and bad people would continue to stray from the prescribed behaviour. Since Allah's prescriptions are based upon the whole Old Testament including God's reshaping as God of justice and mercy after the Prophets I'd be surprised if the Quran expressed themes other than those in the OT.

I am a pantheist sort of atheist, not a theist. I have argued that if God were to be immanent creator and not transcendent creator God would be wholly acceptable to any imaginative pantheist, and to many atheists as well. I find the extracts from the Quran easy to interpret as Allah immanent.

The Quran is, like Jesus, a reasonable guide to how to live in harmony with what Taoists call "the Way".

I'd welcome any further postings that contain extracts from the Quran.
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 22nd, 2015, 6:28 am

Belinda wrote:Spectrum, I am a little ashamed of myself for being bored reading the Quran. I read the extracts that you posted with pleasure.
However you have scored an own goal.





?? Don't be too hasty in jumping into such a conclusion. Note that is only 22 verses to give you an inkling of the 2600+ evil laden verses.
I interpret the matter in those extracts as good, and applicable to today's problems, even whilst I disapprove of the references to God as Designer.
I interpreted the Quran extracts as injunctions to Muhammad's Muslims to be good people and not bad people. Good people would be submissive to Allah's prescribed good behaviour, and bad people would continue to stray from the prescribed behaviour. Since Allah's prescriptions are based upon the whole Old Testament including God's reshaping as God of justice and mercy after the Prophets I'd be surprised if the Quran expressed themes other than those in the OT.

I'd welcome any further postings that contain extracts from the Quran.





It is true those verses are as sort of warning and threat to Muslims to remain Muslims and not to be apostate. But a 'good' Muslim is not necessary a good or ethical human being as evident by the real evils committed by them.

The other fact is, those verses were directed and build up hatred against non-believers. Muhammad used the primordial malignant "us versus them" strategy to ensure Muslims stay loyal to him.
In the Quran, the Jews, Christians are treated as disbelievers of the Quran and Muhammad as messenger therefore deserved the scorns and wraths that Allah pound on them, and be oppressed and killed where necessary.
  1. 5:51. O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

    5:57. O ye who believe! Choose not for friends such of those who received the Scripture before you, and of the disbelievers, as make a jest and sport of your religion. But keep your duty to Allah if ye are true believers.

    4:65. And ye know of those of you [the Jews] who broke the Sabbath, bow We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!

    2':109. Many of the People of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

    3:74. Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

    9:5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay [Kill] the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    9:14. Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low [disgrace, shame, humiliate, degrade] and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.

    9:29. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low*. [*in other translations: humbled, in state of subjection, with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued, state of complete abasement, degrade, belittled, feel subdued, subservient]

    9:123. O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

It is the combination of the evil laden verses [2600+ and 1000+ others] combining with the very lethal verses above [this is merely a sampling] that culminate in some Muslims committing the terrible evils around the world today.

Btw, the above is merely presented to give you an inkling of how Islam is very malignant as confirmed with empirical evidence in reality and I suggest you do not be too conclusive until you have read the whole of the Quran and other related texts & information.

-- Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:51 am --
ScottieX wrote:
Spectrum wrote: This is one reason why non-Muslims are killed as if like swatted flies all over the world.




It seems like the vast majority of people killed by fundamentalist Islamic violence are Islamic people. Mostly there is terrorism in Islamic countries where the only people the crazies can get their hands on are Islamic people.




It is true there are many "Muslims" who are killed BUT the point is the killer Muslims do not regard the 'Muslims' they killed as 'true Muslims' in accordance to their own interpretations. The Sunnis [e.g. Saudi] do not respect Shias [Iran] as true Muslims and vice versa. ISIS do not regard Shias and other Sunni as true Muslims as they have strayed from the "true" teachings.

What is 'true' Islam is of course relative as there is no central authority to decide what 'true Islam' is. This again is why Islam is a problem to humanity. Imagine the potential threat to humanity when rich countries like Iran [Shia] and Saudi Arabia/Egypt/others [Sunni] getting access to nukes! and Muslims do not give a damn to life on Earth in preference to their eternal life in heaven abound with easily available virgins.

There are killing of Muslims within the same sect but that is not significant.

In many cases of terrorist attacks the Muslims surrounded are exempted from being killed [tested by their declaration and ability to quote the relevant verses].

Don't be like an ostrich with its head in the sand. The attacks by Islamist extremists in non-Muslim countries are already on a rising trend since the last 50 years. With DIY drones easily available at present and its advancing technologies, Islamists terrorists will be sending them like locusts strapped with large enough bombs to cause serious damage all over various Cities in the West [during the Super Bowl?] and elsewhere.

In addition to non-Muslims being swatted like flies, note the evil prone terrorists are also destroying artifacts and cultures in addition to the terrible hardship they bring to refugees and civilians.

-- Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:01 am --

ScottieX, note the drone point I made above.

Drone with 'minuscule' quantity of radiation found on Japan PM's office roof: [url=mediahttp://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/22/us-j ... 9M20150422]reuters.com/article/2015/04/22/us-japan ... 9M20150422[/url]

It is no too difficult to add a large dose and drop them on a stadium or anywhere full of people.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Londoner » April 22nd, 2015, 7:36 am

I see Spectrum is still insisting his interpretation of the Koran is superior to that of actual Muslims, but then actual Muslims do not have access to Spectrum's special 'evil' weighing machine. He says 'What is 'true' Islam is of course relative as there is no central authority to decide what 'true Islam' is'; yet does not hesitate to take on that authority himself.

With a similar sense of authority he feels free to pronounce on the causes of conflict. The answer is always the same; if they don't involve Muslims, then they result from the usual mixture of political and sociological factors. But if they involve Muslims they are caused by 'evil laden' Islam. Thus he can get over the awkward fact that non-Muslims have been responsible for far more wars and other acts of aggression than Muslims.

A hundred years ago we would have been getting all the same arguments, but then the baddies would have been the Jews, or the Freemasons, or the Catholics...and at this moment, Spectrum's opposite number in ISIS will be constructing an identical theory about how the evil-laden Bible has caused Jews and Christians to be specially wicked throughout history.

My explanation for all of them is: testosterone. Unfortunately, males have a tendency to respond to pressure by aggression. But fortunately, as levels drop, they come to express it in less harmful ways, e.g. using the internet to insult their perceived enemy from a safe distance.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 22nd, 2015, 3:01 pm

Spectrum wrote:ScottieX, note the drone point I made above.

Drone with 'minuscule' quantity of radiation found on Japan PM's office roof: [url=mediahttp://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/22/us-j ... 9M20150422]reuters.com/article/2015/04/22/us-japan ... 9M20150422[/url]

It is no too difficult to add a large dose and drop them on a stadium or anywhere full of people.
How to deal with this is an interesting point which I have thought about quite a bit...

What do we do when it is biological weapons that are on those drones and we cannot afford for a single one to EVER occur (or at least is somewhere along that scale). Note at this stage dealing with Islam or any other identifiable root cause just wont cut it as a solution. You can't allow a cult leader or a US nationalist or a communist or whatever to sneak under the radar a single time even if they are less of a risk than the Islamic extremists.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 22nd, 2015, 4:09 pm

Spectrum quoted from the Quran:
9:5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay [Kill] the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
I suppose this is as violent as the Quran gets so I copied this bit to discuss.

It seems obvious to me that the above is aimed at a particular incident when Muhammad and his Muslims invaded Mecca and established their power there, after having been forced to flee Mecca and settle elsewhere. Within this short extract Muhammad shows how Islam tolerates idolaters (the polytheistic Meccans, I suppose) as long as they repent, pay the poor due, and worship. Muhammad is not therefore an intolerant and cruel conqueror.I am not even a Islamic scholar and even I can interpret this.
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 22nd, 2015, 11:56 pm

Londoner wrote:I see Spectrum is still insisting his interpretation of the Koran is superior to that of actual Muslims, but then actual Muslims do not have access to Spectrum's special 'evil' weighing machine. He says 'What is 'true' Islam is of course relative as there is no central authority to decide what 'true Islam' is'; yet does not hesitate to take on that authority himself.


As I had stated, I do not deny there are positives from Islam and Muslims contributions to humanity. However in the light of the terrible evils that is committed around the world by Muslims around the world, it is imperative that we analyze the critical root causes.

Now what I have shown is how SOME (could be up to 300 millions) Muslims had and is interpreting the Quran as it in such a manner that manifest real terrible evils around the world that is causing so much sufferings and havoc. I don't think this is disputable.

As usual you are bringing issue [straw man] irrelevant to the point re 'Evil from Islamists.'
All other evils from other religions and the secular MUST be addressed and dealt with appropriately, but they are off topic in this OP re Islam.

-- Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:37 pm --
Belinda wrote:Spectrum quoted from the Quran:
9:5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay [Kill] the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
I suppose this is as violent as the Quran gets so I copied this bit to discuss.

It seems obvious to me that the above is aimed at a particular incident when Muhammad and his Muslims invaded Mecca and established their power there, after having been forced to flee Mecca and settle elsewhere. Within this short extract Muhammad shows how Islam tolerates idolaters (the polytheistic Meccans, I suppose) as long as they repent, pay the poor due, and worship. Muhammad is not therefore an intolerant and cruel conqueror.I am not even a Islamic scholar and even I can interpret this.


This is a very 'cheap' response via cherry picking and merely based on one verse. I was expecting you are well aware of such a fallacious move after participating so long in a philosophical forum.
Note I mentioned you have to read at least the all 6236 verses of the Quran to ensure some credibility besides the necessary hadiths, sunnah and other related texts. Your views has very heavy handicaps if you don't do the necessary readings.

The general principle and ethos of Islam as reflected in the few verses I have shown is non-Muslims are to be subdued or exterminated if necessary. In other cases, the non-Muslims males were totally wiped out, and women kept as sex-slaves as practiced today by ISIS and Boko Haram.

In 9:5 the non-Muslims has to repent [convert to be Muslims] or pay tax in a state of being humbled, in state of subjection, with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued, state of complete abasement, degrade, belittled, feel subdued, or subservience.

This tolerance of the Jews, Christians and idolators are a convenience because then they were the richer and productive ones and the Muslims need funds which they leeched from non-Muslims. In addition, the Muslims were fewer in number and has to rely on the skills of non-Muslims. The tolerance with non-Muslims is only as far as it convenient and has a net-positive payoff within their Caliphate. Where it is net-negative, non-Muslims will be killed where necessary as evidenced by ISIS and other terrorists.

Note what I have shown above is merely the First 37 verses of the Quran plus some violent verses and there are thousands more in various degrees of evil.
My point is to show you how the Quran inculcate and establish hatred of non-Muslims right from the beginning that influenced what follows thereafter with thousands of such verses in similar hatred tone. This should tell you straight away of what sort of religion it is in contrast to other non-Abrahamic religions, say Buddhism which focus on self-spiritual-development and not a bit on the condemnations and hatred of non-Buddhists.

I understand one can view the incidents in the Quran as historical and time-based. However, many Muslims live on the principles from these examples [Muhammad is a exemplar to all Muslims Quran 33:21] to deal with non-Muslims accordingly to ensure their salvation to eternal life and heaven is very secured.

The Principle of fighting, killing and subduing non-Muslim as stated in the Quran [the FINAL message from God] is an eternal principle for Muslims to follow regardless of time and conditions.
Prove me wrong on this if you can.
Btw, I am not saying all Muslims lived by this principle, but it is a significant evil and threat to humanity if such a principle is active in the mind of say 20% which is 300 millions Muslims around the world. [in fact it is already a reality]

-- Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:55 pm --
ScottieX wrote:How to deal with this is an interesting point which I have thought about quite a bit...

What do we do when it is biological weapons that are on those drones and we cannot afford for a single one to EVER occur (or at least is somewhere along that scale). Note at this stage dealing with Islam or any other identifiable root cause just wont cut it as a solution.



DIY drones are a serious potential threat. I am sure the authorities are aware of it and I leave it to the security experts to deal with it.

If we can neutralize the Grounds why some Muslims are compel to kill non-Muslims in the name of their religion [doctrine], Allah and their Muhammad, then there is no threat at all from the 1.5 billion Muslims to commit evil on non-Muslims using drones and any other weapons.
For example, Buddhism as a religion do not have religious grounds to kill non-Buddhists. Therefore Islam as religion should be able to do the same, only if we can get rid of all the violent and hatred verses [not necessary for spiritual anyway] in the Quran and the associated holy text. This is why I am highlighting them and their psychological impacts on some Muslims.
You can't allow a cult leader or a US nationalist or a communist or whatever to sneak under the radar a single time even if they are less of a risk than the Islamic extremists.



Like Londoner you don't seem to be able to let go of the 'off topic' issue. It is a very natural compulsion for many.
There are so many other threats to humanity from all sources and ALL must be addressed by the respective parties within the respective category.
In terms of the more serious probable threats, there is the limited resources problem, population expansion, global warming, and note a rogue meteor coming from nowhere that can destroy Earth in an instance. But because these are not related to Islam, we do not discuss them even though they are very CRITICAL.

-- Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:58 pm --

ETA: []
But because these are not related to Islam, we do not discuss them [here in this thread] even though they are very CRITICAL.
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 23rd, 2015, 2:20 am

Spectrum wrote:If we can neutralize the Grounds why some Muslims are compel to kill non-Muslims in the name of their religion [doctrine], Allah and their Muhammad, then there is no threat at all from the 1.5 billion Muslims to commit evil on non-Muslims using drones and any other weapons.
Surely that is false. Yes you might reduce the number of attacks by 90%. But not 100%. In the end you just buy us a few more weeks. Nice to have I suppose.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 23rd, 2015, 3:13 am

ScottieX wrote:
Spectrum wrote:If we can neutralize the Grounds why some Muslims are compel to kill non-Muslims in the name of their religion [doctrine], Allah and their Muhammad, then there is no threat at all from the 1.5 billion Muslims to commit evil on non-Muslims using drones and any other weapons.
Surely that is false. Yes you might reduce the number of attacks by 90%. But not 100%. In the end you just buy us a few more weeks. Nice to have I suppose.

I am targeting for 100% but face the following constraints which I think can be resolved in time when the average person has the relevant knowledge, live it and we have the technology to do it.

I have identified the problem of Islamist evil to the following TWO main points;
1. A % of evil linked [laden] verses [>50%] in the Quran and the ethos of Islam
2. A small % of evil prone Muslims (inherent in any group of human).

If we can deal with 1, then there is no opportunity for evil prone Muslims to use the religion to commit violence. In this case, there will still be Muslims who are naturally prone to evil, but they will have to commit evil on a personal basis or some other ideologies but no ways in the name of Islam.
But the problem is there is no way one can edit out the evil linked verses as the Quran is immutable.
So we have to find ways to neutralize those evil grounds that the terrorist used to commit their violence. There are ways to do it, but it is long story.
Even then as you said, the best is a likely 90% solution.

My long term vision is humanity must wean off [very gradually] religions and religiosity in the future when we can find imperative foolproof replacements for religions. We cannot wean off religion without effective replacement with deal with the existential dilemma. This is possible given the exponential advancing trend of knowledge and technology we have at present.
Once we wean off religions in the future [75, 100 > years], then there is absolutely no religious-based [thus Islamic] evil at all.

There will always be a small percentage of humans [regardless whether there is religion or not] who are evil prone. Humanity will then have to focus of evil-in-general* without the menacing religious based evils of Islam. Secular evils committed by the non-religious is likely to be localized and not like those of Islam where one incident can inflame any or a group of Muslims from anywhere in the world [can even be around your neighborhood] into a mob of frenzy killers.
* I have researched extensively into evil-in-general and how to resolve it at present and in the future, but this is off topic.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Belinda
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Belinda » April 23rd, 2015, 3:22 am

Spectrum wrote:
I have researched extensively into evil-in-general and how to resolve it at present and in the future, but this is off topic.
I hope that Spectrum will release this information to the public internet and all other public media and not sell to the highest bidder.
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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Londoner » April 23rd, 2015, 3:56 am

Spectrum: Now what I have shown is how SOME (could be up to 300 millions) Muslims had and is interpreting the Quran as it in such a manner that manifest real terrible evils around the world that is causing so much sufferings and havoc. I don't think this is disputable.
No you haven't.

If a Muslim is violent you put it down to the Koran. If anyone else is violent you put it down to all the ususal political and sociological reasonings.

By that logic then we could turn any correlation into a cause. Christians were aggressive imperialists therefore Jesus caused imperialism. It is the same logic used by the racist, who says if a criminal is black he must be a criminal because he is black.
All other evils from other religions and the secular MUST be addressed and dealt with appropriately, but they are off topic in this OP re Islam.
Sorry, the topic here is philosophy. I am allowed to point out why your argument is faulty, with illustrative examples.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by ScottieX » April 23rd, 2015, 4:23 am

Belinda wrote:I hope that Spectrum will release this information to the public internet and all other public media and not sell to the highest bidder.
I think it might need to remain a secret, as the solution to evil probably looks very similar to evil.

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Re: Overall Rating and Opinion of The No-Nonsense Guide to I

Post by Spectrum » April 25th, 2015, 2:08 am

Londoner wrote:
Spectrum: Now what I have shown is how SOME (could be up to 300 millions) Muslims had and is interpreting the Quran as it in such a manner that manifest real terrible evils around the world that is causing so much sufferings and havoc. I don't think this is disputable.
No you haven't.

If a Muslim is violent you put it down to the Koran. If anyone else is violent you put it down to all the ususal political and sociological reasonings.
I can't stop you from denying. I have proven my case with the following supporting evidences and arguments I have provided, i.e.

1. The many instances, e.g. Bin Laden, and other Islamists who commit those terrible violence and evil accompanied by they listing the relevant verses they relied upon to commit their evil acts. Here is Bin Laden's message to America, read it ... theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theob ... heobserver
Note I have given many other examples in the past.

2. As for Buddhists who commit evils, they are not doing in the name of Buddhism or Buddha. And they do not quote any Buddhist texts when they commit any act of violence. There may one or a few verses in Buddhist texts that indicate some element of violence but they are the few drops in an ocean and no Buddhists has ever quoted them to commit evil.

3. The OT may contain violent laden verses but Jews do not relied upon them to commit extensive violence like the Muslims are doing and besides the number of Jews around the world is very small in contrast to the 1.5 billions of Muslims. In any case, whatever violence originating from texts relating to Judaism, they should be condemned.

4. The Christians may have committed terrible evils in the past but these evils acts are against the teachings of Jesus who command Christians to love their enemies not to kill their enemies. In such a case, it the Christians who take upon themselves to commit violence and not as condoned by their religion per se.
By that logic then we could turn any correlation into a cause. Christians were aggressive imperialists therefore Jesus caused imperialism. It is the same logic used by the racist, who says if a criminal is black he must be a criminal because he is black.
I did not specify correlation must be necessary a direct cause.
In most cases we normally starts with hypothesis & correlations and then zoom into the detailed elements to find the smoking gun. The evil laden texts of Islam are significant and critical contributing elements that catalyze SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils around the world.


There is a correlation between asbestos and cancer. Asbestos is one useful and cheap material and many has to use it to build houses. However, not every who is exposed to asbestos get cancer. Therefore we cannot be conclusive that asbestos will cause cancer. Nevertheless, tests do show that asbestos is highly malignant and it is recommended to be banned.
Similarly, Islam is very critical to many but it has a malignant potential as evident by real terrible evils around the world. Thus it is only rational that humanity look at the correlation and deal with it appropriately. Problem is many apologists [like yourself] are pulling wools over the eyes of many to insist Islam is a religion of peace when in fact in part it is not a peaceful religion.
Sorry, the topic here is philosophy. I am allowed to point out why your argument is faulty, with illustrative examples.


Of course you have the right to present whatever the argument, but yours diversions [bringing in Hitler, Stalin, communism and the likes as comparatives]are merely straw man and off topic.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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