The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an atheist?

Use this forum to discuss the October 2016 Book of the Month, The Voice of Creation by J. Hudson Mitchell.
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Josefina1110
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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Josefina1110 » November 17th, 2016, 1:35 pm

Tanks for your responses. One reason you cannot believe ever that God exist is that you don't read the Bible. I humbly recommend that you just skim or maybe just open and read anything that first strike your eyes. If it doesn't lead you to further reading, give it a second chance and however many chances you give and it still not hold your attention then leave it alone. But at least open it and read a word or words and if it catches your attention. go on. If it doesn't, then forget it. And let us end our discussion because we are running parallel to the direction we want to end up. There are only two destinations that our life is headed to and these are heaven and hell. If your direction is not toward heaven then you are going to the other. In this life we have to have a destination because we will both have an everlasting life either in heaven or hell. I have chosen mine by believing in my King. I hope you have not finalized your choice yet. I still persuade you to believe. There is no harm in believing in eternal life with God now. When you die it will be too late. That is my final thoughts. When you change your mind, don't hesitate to accept God's blessings.

-- November 17th, 2016, 1:40 pm --

One more thing, read my book from cover to cover or at least read the review of my book The Voice of Creation from OnlineBookClub/reviews. Maybe it will help you understand the Bible. Thank you very much.

Pelegrin_1
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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Pelegrin_1 » November 20th, 2016, 8:39 pm

Josefina1110 wrote:Tanks for your responses. One reason you cannot believe ever that God exist is that you don't read the Bible. I humbly recommend that you just skim or maybe just open and read anything that first strike your eyes. If it doesn't lead you to further reading, give it a second chance and however many chances you give and it still not hold your attention then leave it alone. But at least open it and read a word or words and if it catches your attention. go on. If it doesn't, then forget it. And let us end our discussion because we are running parallel to the direction we want to end up. There are only two destinations that our life is headed to and these are heaven and hell. If your direction is not toward heaven then you are going to the other. In this life we have to have a destination because we will both have an everlasting life either in heaven or hell. I have chosen mine by believing in my King. I hope you have not finalized your choice yet. I still persuade you to believe. There is no harm in believing in eternal life with God now. When you die it will be too late. That is my final thoughts. When you change your mind, don't hesitate to accept God's blessings.

-- November 17th, 2016, 1:40 pm --

One more thing, read my book from cover to cover or at least read the review of my book The Voice of Creation from OnlineBookClub/reviews. Maybe it will help you understand the Bible. Thank you very much.
The problem I'm having here, Josefina, is that you seem to fail to grasp the idea that some people aren't just willing to accept that there's a God or that The Bible is God's word just because The Bible says so. The faithful, like yourself, are all around us, so I think I pretty much understand your stance because most of us in the Christian world are born with it surrounding us at every turn. It's actually rather rare for people not to get caught up into before they are even aware that they've become a believer without even having ever really thought about what it is they're believing. And then some or many, like yourself, just take on that belief and dive into it full tilt, and into The Bible and let it become an encompassing part of their lives. However, if someone doesn't choose simply to automatically accept that there's a God, and doesn't simply accept that this book, The Bible, is a written declaration that it is the book of this God, then the faithful like you think it's just because we haven't read The Bible well enough. It's got nothing to do with how well we read it; it has everything to do with the simple fact that I and others just refuse to have any book, whatever book, be itself the proof for what it asserts. It's a book! It was written by people who (at least supposedly) believed what they were writing to be true. But that's what they believed, it doesn't mean that we have to believe what they believed. Sure, if you or others want to believe it, then certainly you'll likely find all the reason you want to believe it. But again, it's not that I don't want to believe it; it's that I really don't want to simply believe something, something as grandiose as knowledge about a Universal God, without there being proof that I as a mere human can know to be undoubtedly true. A book, The Bible, telling me such is not proof!

If you believe in a God, and then believe that The Bible is the word of that God, then I can at least understand why you believe what you believe about The Bible. But I have no particular reason to believe that there is a God, so therefore I have no particular reason to believe The Bible with respect to anything it says about God since I have no reason to believe that this God exists to start with. So it's not about whether The Bible holds my attention or not; it's about not believing that there's a God because a book says so, or because it might feel good for people to believe that there's a God, or whatever. Whatever we might feel about something doesn't make it true; it only shows that we have a true desire for it to be true. That means **** all with respect to something actually being true or not. Even if 100% of humanity desire it to be true and believe it to be true, that still doesn't make it be true, it only means that the desire and the belief is commonly/unanimously held.

And I see that now you've entered heaven and hell into the discussion. Well, I don't believe in those either, other than to say that humanity seems to do well at simulating both conditions here on our planet. And the planet itself as lived through both conditions. They're natural conditions, it seems, of the universe. Nothing spiritual or anti-spiritual about them.

Oh, and my choice is indeed final. Because I don't ever see myself, in this life, being more than a mere human, so I simply and absolutely know that I cannot ever know about the existence or not of some God. Sure there may be no harm in believing that there is a God, but there is my conscience, and my conscience says that I cannot be so pretentious to think that I can know such a thing. I cannot live my life, nor die, with a belief in something that I have no justification to believe. I don't want to live my life founded in a blind belief. I wish to live true to what I know and live with what I'm unable to know. IF there is a good Universal God, on the off chance, I do not fear IT. For one, because IT's good, but mostly because I know that my simple human life is barely a blimp on IT's radar. We are not special in a Universal context. The Universe is special. Our Planet, I think, is probably quite special, but we are nothing more than the most evolutionary advanced creatures that currently exist on this planet. I refuse to put myself on some pedestal in relation to a Universal God that likely doesn't exist anyway.

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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Pelegrin_1 » November 20th, 2016, 8:53 pm

I think it can be fairly simply to be a believer, especially if one thinks that being a believer will eventually reap you great benefits. Some say that they struggle with their faith, but I say it's a false dilemma, because the only reason it's a struggle is because the individual has already decided that they want to believe, that they want to have faith. That's not a problem that I have! And I simply do not, nor will ever, want to believe something as Universally grand as there being a Universal God, based simply on a desire to want it to be true. If I could possibly believe there is a God, I only want to do it based on proof that I as a mere human could somehow trust to be undoubtedly true.

Josefina1110
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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Josefina1110 » November 21st, 2016, 9:30 pm

Thanks for your words. I still want you to believe in God. If you don't, do not worry about my belief. It is not my belief that matters. It is the One whom I believe that will judge us in the end. I have an obligation as a believer to make others believe the Living God and to warn unbelievers that unbelief is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. I can't be rude but I will not go on talking about my belief to anyone who despises the Word of God. The Bible says do not give a gem to a pig. . . it won't have any use of it. That is not my word. I won't give you the reference because it will not help. I will turn you over to the God that I believe. He will enlighten you because this encounter is not an accident. He wants you to believe. God bless you.

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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Pelegrin_1 » November 21st, 2016, 11:31 pm

Josefina1110 wrote:Thanks for your words. I still want you to believe in God. If you don't, do not worry about my belief. It is not my belief that matters. It is the One whom I believe that will judge us in the end. I have an obligation as a believer to make others believe the Living God and to warn unbelievers that unbelief is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. I can't be rude but I will not go on talking about my belief to anyone who despises the Word of God. The Bible says do not give a gem to a pig. . . it won't have any use of it. That is not my word. I won't give you the reference because it will not help. I will turn you over to the God that I believe. He will enlighten you because this encounter is not an accident. He wants you to believe. God bless you.
"Despises"?? And as to the other part that I bolded... Those may not be your words, but you chose to say them here. I now do think it's best that we end with that. Besides, I see nothing productive to respond to above.

Josefina1110
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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Josefina1110 » November 21st, 2016, 11:44 pm

good riddance.

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Beanjay
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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Beanjay » November 22nd, 2016, 6:17 am

This discussion has served to illustrate how it is possible for religious extremists to create havoc in the world but it also presents a question. Why do people freely choose to believe things for which there is not a single shred of evidence?

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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Pelegrin_1 » November 24th, 2016, 7:42 pm

Beanjay wrote:This discussion has served to illustrate how it is possible for religious extremists to create havoc in the world but it also presents a question. Why do people freely choose to believe things for which there is not a single shred of evidence?
Here's a sincere observation that I've taken from this discussion I've has with Josefina... First, I alluded to it in a comment I made to her, but then after further thought I realized that it had greater significance. I said that most non-believers, I think, have a pretty good grasp of why believers believe. We may well disagree with their belief or their faith in their belief, but I think we understand why or how it is that they do. However, I hadn't before thought of the idea of them actually considering why non-believers hold the opinions that they do. It seems that most believers just have this attitude that the only reason we're non-believers (Agnostics or Atheists) is because we haven't read the Bible well enough, or perhaps that we haven't allowed God to enter our hearts (or some combination of the two). They don't seem to grasp or simply refuse to accept the idea that we may have (our) reasons for why we don't believe. They essentially ignore those reasons or arguments. I can sort of accept if they say that they simply disagree with them, but they don't even really do that at all. They give non-believers' arguments no credit whatsoever, but expect us to give their reasoning all the value in the world. Personally, I'm getting tired of having to respect religious beliefs, when atheistic or agnostic thought isn't given any required respect.

Josefina1110
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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Josefina1110 » November 24th, 2016, 11:04 pm

If you only read the book you will find that I have great respect for science which is your basis of unbelief. Your problem is that I put my belief in God on the pedestal and that God is the ultimate scientist and everything else. For me science gives physical proof of the existence of God. Just because science has proven a lot of things doesn't mean that there is no God. The Bible has proven everything that science has discovered. And the Bible tells us that there is nothing new under the sun. What science has discovered had already existed before the discovery. It is not enough that my belief is only respected but it has to be practiced. This is where the conflict arise because atheists or agnostics are nullifying the practice of believers which means that they want to impose their unbelief on believers which will not happen. Like I have said before, we are running parallel from each other in this journey of belief. Parallel lines will never meet except to itself in the end. The Bible says, there is a great gulf between us that we can never cross to either side. Either you believe in God and have eternal life in heaven or not believe in God and have eternal life in hell. God breathe life to man, therefore we became a living soul. Our body which is made of dust will die but our soul is from God so it will not die. That is why I believe in God because He saved me from death and damnation in hell. That is the essence of salvation. I believe in salvation because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and He is the first born of those who are destined to live eternally.

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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Pelegrin_1 » November 25th, 2016, 12:45 am

Josefina1110 wrote:If you only read the book you will find that I have great respect for science which is your basis of unbelief. Your problem is that I put my belief in God on the pedestal and that God is the ultimate scientist and everything else. For me science gives physical proof of the existence of God. Just because science has proven a lot of things doesn't mean that there is no God. The Bible has proven everything that science has discovered. And the Bible tells us that there is nothing new under the sun. What science has discovered had already existed before the discovery. It is not enough that my belief is only respected but it has to be practiced. This is where the conflict arise because atheists or agnostics are nullifying the practice of believers which means that they want to impose their unbelief on believers which will not happen. Like I have said before, we are running parallel from each other in this journey of belief. Parallel lines will never meet except to itself in the end. The Bible says, there is a great gulf between us that we can never cross to either side. Either you believe in God and have eternal life in heaven or not believe in God and have eternal life in hell. God breathe life to man, therefore we became a living soul. Our body which is made of dust will die but our soul is from God so it will not die. That is why I believe in God because He saved me from death and damnation in hell. That is the essence of salvation. I believe in salvation because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and He is the first born of those who are destined to live eternally.
Little you know... Science has virtually nothing to do with the basis of my non-belief. My basis of non-belief is rooted in one thing: No real evidence for belief and no real reason to believe other than pure human desire that there be an afterlife, some continuation of our existence, and even better how great that would be in the hands of a God that treats us as his loved children. None of that is "reason" to believe, and none of that is evidence to believe a book written by people who touted it as the word of God because they themselves were believers in that God.

The Universe is a vast, almost essentially infinite and incredible thing, within which virtually anything is possible, including the existence of a planet (or even other such planets) that is located in just the right place for life to take root when the right set of elements got deposited there for life to develop. Elements that also have the potential to exist again in a Universe of infinite possibility. Now there we have it, a Universe of infinite possibility, but because people don't think of the Universe itself as having conscious intent, and therefore humans aren't the result of conscious intent, believers like yourself need to add an extra dimension to the already incredible Universe and say that beyond this incredible Universe is yet an incredible God. Well, whether this gives my argument credit or not, it was the argument first thought by a 10-year-old, who had neither science nor God pounded into his brain, and actually had a Bible in his room and found it to be an interesting book, but he thought: Isn't humanity just 'passing the buck', that was the phrase I used, not accepting one incredible thing as the origin of our existence as simply one of the infinite possibilities of the Universe, and piling on top a second incredible entity, God, itself with no explanation of where God came from. If God didn't need to come from somewhere, then why did the Universe have to come from somewhere? An unexplained Universe can be the answer to everything just as much as a God. But I as a mere human am not declaring that I "know" the answer to whichever or whatever the answer might be. It may only be humanities biggest question, but I absolutely refuse to identify myself with any particular answer to that question because I don't have the arrogance to do so, as I know at least one thing: Different possibilities exist! You may call me whatever you want because of my acceptance of possibilities beyond the one, your God; that's your prerogative.

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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Lone Wolf » November 25th, 2016, 1:12 am

The Universe is a vast, almost essentially infinite and incredible thing, within which virtually anything is possible, including the existence of a planet (or even other such planets) that is located in just the right place for life to take root when the right set of elements got deposited there for life to develop. Elements that also have the potential to exist again in a Universe of infinite possibility. Now there we have it, a Universe of infinite possibility, but because people don't think of the Universe itself as having conscious intent, and therefore humans aren't the result of conscious intent, believers like yourself need to add an extra dimension to the already incredible Universe and say that beyond this incredible Universe is yet an incredible God. Well, whether this gives my argument credit or not, it was the argument first thought by a 10-year-old, who had neither science nor God pounded into his brain, and actually had a Bible in his room and found it to be an interesting book, but he thought: Isn't humanity just 'passing the buck', that was the phrase I used, not accepting one incredible thing as the origin of our existence as simply one of the infinite possibilities of the Universe, and piling on top a second incredible entity, God, itself with no explanation of where God came from. If God didn't need to come from somewhere, then why did the Universe have to come from somewhere? An unexplained Universe can be the answer to everything just as much as a God. But I as a mere human am not declaring that I "know" the answer to whichever or whatever the answer might be. It may only be humanities biggest question, but I absolutely refuse to identify myself with any particular answer to that question because I don't have the arrogance to do so, as I know at least one thing: Different possibilities exist! You may call me whatever you want because of my acceptance of possibilities beyond the one, your God; that's your prerogative.

Pelegrin- You have expressed my sentiments exactly. Personally, I believe in something beyond the physical existence of the universe, but I have no empirical evidence to support my belief. My belief comes from an emotional experience some thirty-two years ago. What that something is, I cannot conceive and therefore cannot define it. It might be God, but I simply do not know and I do not try to convince anyone else of my belief. If the religious people of the world would simply allow everyone to have an opinion without trying to convert every one to their particular belief system I believe we would have a much more peaceful world.

-- November 25th, 2016, 12:17 am --

"The Universe is a vast, almost essentially infinite and incredible thing, within which virtually anything is possible, including the existence of a planet (or even other such planets) that is located in just the right place for life to take root when the right set of elements got deposited there for life to develop. Elements that also have the potential to exist again in a Universe of infinite possibility. Now there we have it, a Universe of infinite possibility, but because people don't think of the Universe itself as having conscious intent, and therefore humans aren't the result of conscious intent, believers like yourself need to add an extra dimension to the already incredible Universe and say that beyond this incredible Universe is yet an incredible God. Well, whether this gives my argument credit or not, it was the argument first thought by a 10-year-old, who had neither science nor God pounded into his brain, and actually had a Bible in his room and found it to be an interesting book, but he thought: Isn't humanity just 'passing the buck', that was the phrase I used, not accepting one incredible thing as the origin of our existence as simply one of the infinite possibilities of the Universe, and piling on top a second incredible entity, God, itself with no explanation of where God came from. If God didn't need to come from somewhere, then why did the Universe have to come from somewhere? An unexplained Universe can be the answer to everything just as much as a God. But I as a mere human am not declaring that I "know" the answer to whichever or whatever the answer might be. It may only be humanities biggest question, but I absolutely refuse to identify myself with any particular answer to that question because I don't have the arrogance to do so, as I know at least one thing: Different possibilities exist! You may call me whatever you want because of my acceptance of possibilities beyond the one, your God; that's your prerogative."

Pelegrin- You have expressed my sentiments exactly. Personally, I believe in something beyond the physical existence of the universe, but I have no empirical evidence to support my belief. My belief comes from an emotional experience some thirty-two years ago. What that something is, I cannot conceive and therefore cannot define it. It might be God, but I simply do not know and I do not try to convince anyone else of my belief. If the religious people of the world would simply allow everyone to have an opinion without trying to convert every one to their particular belief system I believe we would have a much more peaceful world.

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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Whisper Wizard » November 27th, 2016, 5:29 am

There are few issues with the first chapter that would be questionable to a skeptic.
(We will speak only what is presented in a Christian sense.)
~The writer only takes into account of literal translations of the Bible rather than metaphorical. That, if not in six days, the Earth could not be created. This seems to be a bit dishonest and creating an argument from thin air. The main question if Earth is created at all. How long it took is trivial by comparison.
~Chapter 1 seems to be a rambling mess and can't seem to stay on topic. Big Bang and evolution is mentioned and 'debunked' with little to no discussion or thoughts to opposition, any form of measurements to the Earth's life-span is dismissed to 'faulty' measuring, recounts of the Biblical story and quotes is given with emphasis on ideas of Satan having some hand in intellectual creation being an antagonist to design, and finally with the presented evidence that is merely quoting and a statement.
~Atheists, regardless of what form of Atheist or nonbeliever, require some sort of evidence or proof of a positive claim.
~Even if the evidence that disproves creation theory is faulty, (We will fancy the idea as being true) this does not mean complete inaccuracy nor by what degree. If there are faults in measurement, even by a 0.5 percent margin, does not equate a gap mistaking in millions of years to thousands of years.
~References to religious authors claim theories equated to fantasy-esque tales but give no evidence I.E. the story of Lucifer possessing animals before the Great Flood to wreck havoc on the Earth forcing God to eradicate life on the planet.
~The main issue on why this chapter, without ranting, could not convince an Atheist is for the reason in bold above. The author even states that her work would not convince an Atheist. Atleast, not an open-minded and skeptical one. One could only imagine the most wavering of nonreligious person being convinced.
"The Bible is really accurate to those who believe the Scripture is the Word of God."
That is the biggest issue here. For an Atheist, God is not part of the equation and absolutely not involved. In order for ANY of the statements to ring true or mean anything has to take into perspective of belief or existence of God. It challenges nothing more than defending the "Young Earth" theory with merely stating Biblical verses. Many statements would scare away any skeptic for being blunt with no hint of being incorrect.
"There is no such thing as the Big Bang. God is God of order-"
"The answer to the question, did God made the world in six days, is yes."
The reader is not given any room of Skepticism with denouncing examples of studies or presenting analogies. The given answers near the end is restating ideas as true and then using Biblical verses as accurate evidence to support God's existence.
~If evidence for God is the Bible, a book written by the mere existence of God, it is faulty evidence to the Atheist as they already reject the notion of god. They are skeptical of the Bible as well. To convince legitimacy of the text's factual status would to prove facts which it represents thus making it a correct representation of history. If this is not presented, the Atheist will denounce the Bible as evidence and still not believe in God.

tl;dr
~Six Day creation theory has nothing to do with why an Atheist is an Atheist atleast in general
~Citations that are not from the Bible or a Christian author/scientist is needed for certain claims
~ God = Bible; The Bible is the presented evidence for God basically. God is responsible for the book. If God is not considered, the Bible is merely a book and must be analyzed as such. If the Bible is accurate because of God, this implies it is inaccurate without him.
~Chapter 1 is written in a manner like a conversation is being had between two Christians with similar beliefs and linguistics rather than leveling with a Atheistic person.

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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Josefina1110 » November 27th, 2016, 11:55 pm

You said it right, "If the Bible is accurate because of God, this implies it is inaccurate without Him." Because of God, the Bible is accurate. So if you are an atheist you have no God, therefore the Bible is inaccurate to you. I am a Creationist because I believe in the Creator and Creation is the first thing that is revealed by the Word of God.
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands (Psalm 19:1). To say it simply, "Creation proclaims the work of his hands."
Do you believe in "darkness?" If you do then you know that darkness is the absence of light. Do you believe in "cold?" If you do then you know that cold is the absence of heat. Do you believe in evil? If you do then you believe that evil is the absence of God. Do you believe in "nothing"? Then you believe that nothing is the absence of creation. If there is creation then there is a creator and God is the Great Creator of heaven and earth.

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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Beanjay » November 28th, 2016, 5:48 am

Why is it necessary to use a belief system when discussing the existence of God? All belief systems were created by men for their own purposes and have no connection with God. The Christian belief system is based upon oral tradition and a study of its history shows that it has no foundation in fact. How can it, or anything connected with it, be used to prove the existence of God?
A faith has no need to be founded in fact, because it is a faith and only based on beliefs, but these beliefs are abstract in nature and cannot be used to actually prove anything.

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Re: The Voice of Creation-- Would Chapter 1 convince an athe

Post by Josefina1110 » November 28th, 2016, 8:46 pm

You said it right. God doesn't need evidence or proof. He needs our faith and trust to direct our lives in righteous living. If we don't have that faith of our Maker, we will live like animals. Our belief system is a gift. But we will not know about this gift if we have no faith in the author and finisher of this faith. Faith is the vehicle that carries the knowledge of God to all generations until He comes back to judge the righteous and the unrighteous.

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