Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

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Belindi
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Belindi »

Morals should be judged in a cultural context because there is no moral authority outside of human cultures of belief, with one possible exception which is that there may be a natural human nature with which we should harmonise. I'm inclined not to believe that there is a natural human nature, because humans compared with other mammals are so extremely plastic.

The one possibility of an authority outside of human cultures of belief is natural human nature. Opinions about natural human nature differ. Arguably the best opinions about human nature are anthropologically-based opinions. Anthropologists can compare different cultures of belief. Zoologists' opinions are also relevant for comparing humans with other mammals.

I myself am affiliated to the liberal first world culture of belief that honours personal responsibility for others' welfare. If I had learned thuggishness or superstition I'd have been affiliated to a thuggish or a superstitious culture of belief. There is the probability of culture clash as we know too well. Culture clashes result in war and other violence unless the people concerned are able to negotiate compromises.

-- Updated April 28th, 2017, 2:05 pm to add the following --

Eduk wrote on March 27:
You are in dangerous ground going around forcing your morals on people because they are 'right'. That path is a dangerous one.
Indeed. Power defines all relationships including when the relationships are liberal ,kindly, and well- intentioned. Benevolent intentions are some safeguard against violence and cruelty and benevolent intentions usually include even distribution of power.

Power relationships include:

Parent-child: teacher-pupil: medic-patient: law court-criminal: priest- parishioner: employer-employee: rich capitalist- third world labourer: political dictator- subject: expansionist country- defenceless country.

Power is the motive of all morality. History is written by the winner.
Spectrum
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote:I concur with all of this. I would ask Spectrum to justify "Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE" from a practical, sociopsychological point of view, please Spectrum.
I have posted my views on the above before.
Here are the reasons;
  • 1. DNA wise all humans are born with a certainty to die [mortality] and this potential expresses itself from day one of birth.

    2. DNA wise all humans are programmed with a neural algorithm with the potential to generate the most excruciating terrible expression and feeling of fear [very primal] most at the subliminal level in any threat of mortality. This is essential to ensure all humans avoid death till the inevitable.

    3. Fortunately or unfortunately, all humans are endowed to self-awareness and self-consciousness to be aware of one's mortality.

    4. In any general situation [real, perceived or imagined] whenever a human is exposed to potential threat of mortality, the mechanism in 2 will kick start to drive the human away from the danger by generating the most terrible feeling of fears at the conscious and subconscious level.

    5. But the reality with self-aware humans is the knowledge [infer from the empirical] of the fact of inevitable mortality is a constant threat without escape and thus generate continuous cycles of threat and the human system is put into turmoil full of primal fears and Dissonance [existential crisis] at all times.
    Fortunately humans has evolved to deal with the terrible dissonance with an inbuilt program to inhibit it at the conscious level such that one is not constantly aware of it except intermittently.
    But what is worst is this dissonance exists permanently at the subliminal levels and it is express all the time with the most terrible psychological angst within the human pscyhe.

    6. There are many ways where suffering humans seek to resolve such a terrible dissonance to maintain consonance, but religion [just believe and viola the dissonance is comforted] is the most effective at present as there are no other effective alternatives at present for the majority.

    7. To many, religion is the thinnest thread that is holding the believer from falling into the abyss of hell [in reality dissonance of an existential crisis]. Thus many believers are even kill if they perceived [rightly, wrongly or imagined] others are pulling or toying with that thin thread they are holding on.
Because element 1, 2 and 3 are embedded at the DNA and neural levels which are too complex for humanity to deal with at the present, there are no quick solutions to it for the majority. Therefore religion the quickest balm [albeit based a false god or otherwise] which in reality and practice do provide real psychological ease to the dissonance is a critical necessity else there terrible sufferings. Forcing humans to give up religion without fool proof alternatives is not an effective solution.

What is fortunate is there is a minority % of progressive humans who are capable of dealing with the dissonance. There are lessons which can be learned from these minorities who has genuinely escaped the need for religions. There are others who deal with the dissonance with drugs and others methods with dangerous side effects. [/i]

With the trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge in IT, neuroscience, genomics, there is a potential for humanity to find alternative fool proofs self-development techniques to target at the neural levels on elements 1, 2 and 3 above to modulate the unavoidable dissonance [existential crisis] mentioned above in the future.

Thus my hypothesis;
"Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE"
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Eduk
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Eduk »

Or you could try acceptance. Acceptance has been proven to work quite well in a large variety of situations. Lying to yourself seems to me to rarely be a good option. Lying to others because they are assumed to not be capable of understanding the truth is pretty arrogant and condescending especially when applied to most of the human race. Atheists don't seem to be suffering the most existential horrors at all times to me and I have no reason to be believe atheists are particularly special.
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Iapetus
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Iapetus »

Reply to Fooloso4:

You had your chance and you blew it.

Thankyou for the conversation but I am no longer interested.
Spectrum
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote:Atheists don't seem to be suffering the most existential horrors at all times to me and I have no reason to be believe atheists are particularly special.
Not sure you are addressing my post above?

DNA wise, all humans are subjected to point 1 [mortality], 2 [primal fears] and 3 [self-consciousness] above. There is no exception in general less one is in coma.
Prove if you think otherwise. It is pulsating within you [like all humans] right now within the dept of your psyche!

The dissonance [existential crisis] generated may not be directed at the basic impulse of religiosity for atheists but it nevertheless is expressed through other mental forms and disorders.
Many atheists may turn to drugs, pain-killers and secular pursuits and ideologies to suppress that psychological angst. Communists will cling to their leaders and dictators as pseudo God, note North Koreans Kim Jong Un, Stalin, Mao, etc.

Some atheists cultivate moderating mechanisms to modulate the inevitable and unavoidable dissonance [existential crisis].

-- Updated Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:24 am to add the following --
Acceptance has been proven to work quite well in a large variety of situations.
I agree acceptance is one form of managing the dissonance.
There are two forms of "acceptance" i.e. resignation, indifference or based on a rationalized approach.
Problem is such approach are flimsy and if triggered by certain stressful stimuli the neural inhibitors will not hold well, then one is likely to suffer the effects of the dissonance.

Note this;
Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God
http://www.livescience.com/19971-belief ... m-age.html
Across the world, people have varying levels of belief (and disbelief) in God, with some nations being more devout than others. But new research reveals one constant across parts of the globe: As people age, their belief in God seems to increase.
Those who did not have proper methodology to reinforce their neural inhibitors are likely to suffer revert to the default and the dissonance re-emerge and push them towards theism.

What is needed in the establishment of effective self-development methods in the future that will build very resilient neural inhibitors that can sustain against natural 'atrophization' of neurons as one ages.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Eduk »

Many atheists may turn to drugs, pain-killers and secular pursuits and ideologies to suppress that psychological angst. Communists will cling to their leaders and dictators as pseudo God, note North Koreans Kim Jong Un, Stalin, Mao, etc.
Firstly while it is a fact that very people are comfortable with mortality and even fewer have little to no survival instinct while at the same time most are well aware of the inevitability of death. That is about where I largely stop agreeing with you.
You need to somehow demonstrate that this one conclusion leads to the rest of the conclusions you are making and to the types of behaviours you are proposing in the quantity you are proposing. Personally I would say it is very unlikely that such a huge sweep of human action and thought can be summarised in a sentence and given whole explanation. Everything you have mentioned has many, convoluted, complicated factors to bring about the whole.
To pick up one example. Many atheists turn to drugs. As do many theists. Do people turn to drugs because they are atheist or because they are theist?
In my, admittedly anecdotal, experience the vast vast number of people who turn to drugs do so out of social pressure. As in their mates are doing it. It is for the majority no less or more complicated than that. Again I've not done a worldwide study of drug use and reasons and it's no doubt a very complex topic. I doubt very much I could do justice to the topic without approaching PHD levels of work on my part. I very much doubt you have any expertise on the subject. Also anecdotal but as a child I had a fried who turned to hard drug use. In this I believe it was due to psychological pain. Not because he was scared of confronting his own mortality though but simply because he was abused by his, drug taking, mother. Something from which the physiological trauma is well recognised.
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Belindi »

Thanks Spectrum.
6. There are many ways where suffering humans seek to resolve such a terrible dissonance to maintain consonance, but religion [just believe and viola the dissonance is comforted] is the most effective at present as there are no other effective alternatives at present for the majority.
Was the key item, I thought.

It was either you or eduk who called religion a "flimsy" erection for withstanding the force of existential angst. I agree that religion at this present time is flimsy. IMO it's also potentially very politically dangerous . Would you consider that a reasonable , revised ,democratic, religion might not be flimsy , and may be a third alternative to religion and secularism?

I do, despite my being aware of the difficulty of teaching such a religion. Believers in religion at this present time , plenty visibly in philosophyforums, seem to be unredeemable literalists

-- Updated April 29th, 2017, 5:08 am to add the following --

Thanks Spectrum.
6. There are many ways where suffering humans seek to resolve such a terrible dissonance to maintain consonance, but religion [just believe and viola the dissonance is comforted] is the most effective at present as there are no other effective alternatives at present for the majority.
Was the key item, I thought.

It was either you or eduk who called religion a "flimsy" erection for withstanding the force of existential angst. I agree that religion at this present time is flimsy. IMO it's also potentially very politically dangerous . Would you consider that a reasonable , revised ,democratic, religion might not be flimsy , and may be a third alternative to religion and secularism?

I do, despite my being aware of the difficulty of teaching such a religion. Believers in religion at this present time , plenty visibly in philosophyforums, seem to be unredeemable literalists
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Spectrum »

Spectrum wrote:
Many atheists may turn to drugs, pain-killers and secular pursuits and ideologies to suppress that psychological angst. Communists will cling to their leaders and dictators as pseudo God, note North Koreans Kim Jong Un, Stalin, Mao, etc.
Firstly while it is a fact that very people are comfortable with mortality and even fewer have little to no survival instinct while at the same time most are well aware of the inevitability of death. That is about where I largely stop agreeing with you.
Btw, you have wrongly reference "Eduk" in your reply, it should be "Spectrum".

You missed my point;
There are two levels as I had mentioned;
1. General conscious level.
At the general conscious level, humans has evolved with a natural inhibitor to suppress the fear of death. Otherwise if all humans fear death consciously all the time, they will not be able to function.
Those who has a weakness in their conscious inhibitors suffer what we called Thanophobia, literally fear of death.
https://en.w:k:pedia.org/w:ki/Death_anxiety_(psychology)

2. Subconscious level.
Now what is suppressed by the evolved inhibitors are not contained totally but the dissonance leaks through various channels in other aspects of life as psychological angst which are difficult to nail.
At times it surfaces as a conscious fear of death.
This is what drives the majority into religion to seek soteriological ease.
You need to somehow demonstrate that this one conclusion leads to the rest of the conclusions you are making and to the types of behaviours you are proposing in the quantity you are proposing. Personally I would say it is very unlikely that such a huge sweep of human action and thought can be summarised in a sentence and given whole explanation. Everything you have mentioned has many, convoluted, complicated factors to bring about the whole.
It is like a large river system with thousand of large & small rivers and a hundred miles wide delta and they all are traceable to one main source.
Other than sexual matters [a different neural channel], the majority of other human activities are driven by that cognitive dissonance as the root and main spring.
Btw, I have done a lot of research on this topic.
To pick up one example. Many atheists turn to drugs. As do many theists. Do people turn to drugs because they are atheist or because they are theist?
People do not turn to drugs because they are theist or atheists.
Many people [addicts] turned to drugs to ease the pains manifesting through different channels from the same root of the existential crisis from deep in the psyche.
There are religious believers who turned to drugs to ease the existential pains because they were merely born into a religious family and not because they are religious.
Some may convert into religion to deal with their existential crisis but soon if the religiosity looses its strength they may turn to drugs or other pursuits.
In my, admittedly anecdotal, experience the vast vast number of people who turn to drugs do so out of social pressure. As in their mates are doing it. It is for the majority no less or more complicated than that. Again I've not done a worldwide study of drug use and reasons and it's no doubt a very complex topic. I doubt very much I could do justice to the topic without approaching PHD levels of work on my part. I very much doubt you have any expertise on the subject. Also anecdotal but as a child I had a fried who turned to hard drug use. In this I believe it was due to psychological pain. Not because he was scared of confronting his own mortality though but simply because he was abused by his, drug taking, mother. Something from which the physiological trauma is well recognised.
If one study the use of drugs by various people, there are obvious reasons on the surface, e.g. social pressures, stress, fun, poverty, parental influenced whatever is observable but the proximate cause of the problematic drug use [addiction] is traceable to the existential crisis at the subliminal levels.

One need to dig deep to get to the proximate cause.
It is the existential crisis that loosen the last 'brake' that drive a person to take drugs.

One clue which is observable is you will note upon fear [trigger by threat of mortality in various degrees] people will do anything to relieve that fear. Generally, a person who is threaten with a gun to the head will do anything the gunman demand. Such fears are quite obvious.
But primal fears driven by an existential crisis from the base of one's is very strong and will effect many aspects of one's life driving the majority into religion and theism.

Many who turned to religion [convert or born again] will give all sorts of reasons but they do not have the intellectual capacity to trace their actions to an existential crisis arising from a cognitive dissonance.
Many believe in theistic religions because they fear what will happen after death and they have psychological insecurity. The proximate cause for such the final decision is traceable to the proximate root causes I mentioned.

The fact is 80% of people in the world at present are theists and they are driven by the resultant existential crisis I hypothesize.
Theoretically if we remove the primal and other superficial neural circuit that generate fears in all humans [amydala and related neurons], I believe the number of theists will be reduced to 5% or likely none as they is no reason to invent a God to believe. The new danger is many will become reckless and risk death in the absence of the death and fear deterrence.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Eduk »

Spectrum, how can you be so sure of yourself? What rules of logic do you hold yourself accountable to? What evidence do you require in order to inform your beliefs?
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote:Spectrum, how can you be so sure of yourself? What rules of logic do you hold yourself accountable to? What evidence do you require in order to inform your beliefs?
I suggest you go through my argument and counter point by point by reflecting on available existing empirical evidences.

The first 3 points are indisputable facts. Here they are again
  • 1. DNA wise all humans are born with a certainty to die [mortality] and this potential expresses itself from day one of birth.

    2. DNA wise all humans are programmed with a neural algorithm with the potential to generate the most excruciating terrible expression and feeling of fear [very primal] mostly at the subliminal level in any threat of mortality. This is essential to ensure all humans avoid death till the inevitable.

    3. Fortunately or unfortunately, all humans are endowed to self-awareness and self-consciousness to be aware of one's mortality.
The rest of the points need a bit more of thinking. I am confident of my inferences on these as I have done extensive research from all relevant fields to justify them.

There is no special logic applied here, it is based on empirical evidence.

Whatever points I made, I make sure [do my best] I research and dig all available evidence and theories to date. If you have read and think widely show me what I have missed out and I will be glad to consider that.
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Eduk »

Just to give one example. Humans can compartmentalise. Cognitive dissonance is an accepted theory but it's effect varies from extremely mile to extremely acute.
Could you link some of the studies showing the empirical evidence which back up your theory.
I basically agree that immortality (an afterlife) is present in the vast majority of religions (at least that I'm aware of). And logically this must be important and also likely important unconsciously. But there is a difference between one important factor of many and the only important factor.
Plus it is a special kind of thing to say that something which you know to be a lie must be told to everyone else because they need lying to. It's quite political thinking.
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

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Eduk wrote:Spectrum, how can you be so sure of yourself? What rules of logic do you hold yourself accountable to? What evidence do you require in order to inform your beliefs?
If one can't be sure of himself, he can't be sure of anyone. Not a valid question.

The second two questions can only be answered in a very long script. Impractical questions on a forum, also unfair. Why? try to answer them TRULY AND FULLY yourself, Eduk, and you'll see my point.
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Felix »

spectrum: The fact is 80% of people in the world at present are theists and they are driven by the resultant existential crisis I hypothesize.
I don't know about that statistic but one could make the case that nontheists, scientists for example, are driven by the same "existential crisis," the only difference being that they seek a physical rather than transcendental immortality, which is an even more irrational prospect.

Your thesis is quite simplistic: People tend to dread what could happen, not what will happen, and therefore fearing death is about as rational as fearing sleep. In both cases, one can expect to lose awareness of physical reality.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Eduk »

[quote]If one can't be sure of himself, he can't be sure of anyone. [\quote]
You presumably are 100% sure of yourself 100% of the time? You must be a very dangerous person.
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Spectrum »

Reply to Eduk
Eduk wrote:Plus it is a special kind of thing to say that something which you know to be a lie must be told to everyone else because they need lying to. It's quite political thinking.
You are accusing me of being a liar and a 'politician'?
This is a very serious slander.
I believe this diversion by you is driven by that fundamental cognitive dissonance because the discussion has triggered some primal fears in you that you need to shut others up to main consonance.

Note I have "abducted" my hypothesis from basic indisputable facts and make various approximate inferences for further discussions. The most you could express is these inferences are not accurate then provide your supporting evidences why they are not accurate. Such processes are typical of any mature intellectual discussion in a philosophical forum.

It is the same psychological reactions [due do dissonance] by those who accuse people who criticize Islam intellectually and rationally as 'Islamophobes' bigots, etc. instead of arguing the topic rationally.

-- Updated Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:10 pm to add the following --

Reply to Felix;
Felix wrote:
spectrum: The fact is 80% of people in the world at present are theists and they are driven by the resultant existential crisis I hypothesize.
I don't know about that statistic but one could make the case that nontheists, scientists for example, are driven by the same "existential crisis," the only difference being that they seek a physical rather than transcendental immortality, which is an even more irrational prospect.
You missed what I wrote earlier.
I stated ALL humans - DNA wise, are "infected" with the same existential crisis [dissonance] which manifest in various forms within the psyche.
80% of humans cling to religions as a balm to soothe that dissonance.

Note I did not say resorting to religion is irrational, it is the most rational [relative to them] because religion works for them to soothe that terrible dissonance [pain, suffering, angst, trembling, etc.]. However what is believed, i.e. a non-existing god is irrational, but this delusional thinking nevertheless works to soothe the threatening angst and pains.

The non-religious rely on other methods [good and evil] to soothe [inhibit] that dissonance while some are indifferent to it.
Your thesis is quite simplistic: People tend to dread what could happen, not what will happen, and therefore fearing death is about as rational as fearing sleep. In both cases, one can expect to lose awareness of physical reality.
Again you missed what I wrote earlier.
The focus here is not about what people are conscious of which is secondary. If one is consciously fearing death, that is a disease, i.e. Thanotophobia which require psychiatric treatment.

My focus here refer to what is happening in the deepest unconscious mind of the person. It is like instinct [but more refine] where processes are trigger involuntarily. It is a difficult to control nervousness, anxieties, and the likes.

The cognitive dissonance [existential crisis] is like the worst kind of mental 'earthquakes' or 'tsunamis' that are happening in the brain/mind permanently which are inhibited at the conscious level but their catastrophic effects leak through various slippages that results in difficult to trace angst and anxieties.

An active conscious fear of death is a disease, i.e. Thanotophobia because it happen to only a rare few people. This is not the topic I am referring to.

It is because the majority are "infected" with a subsconcious and indirect fear of death that it is treated as a norm, thus resorting religion is also a norm.
I believe humanity will be better off when we can recognize the existential crisis arising from the mentioned cognitive dissonance as a mental disease. From more positive perspective, this mean ALL humans -DNA wise, are infected with a mental disease [re existential crisis] so that humanity can find ways to treat it.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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