The Universal Moral Code

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BlindedWantsToSee
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » November 21st, 2017, 8:17 pm

Namelesss wrote:
BlindedWantsToSee wrote:The Universal Moral Code
First, there is no such thing, nor is such a thing possible.
'Morality' is the insane judging (by some) of others as 'good' and 'evil'! The 'good' and 'evil' you perceive is your own reflection!
Religiously, it is sin.
'Morality' is conditional, biased, vain, ignorant...

'Ethics' is;
"Do NOT do to others what you don't want done to you!"
Ever! Period! No exceptions, no conditions, no insane judgment!

'Ethics' is unconditional, born of unconditional Love/Enlightenment!
Unconditional = Universal!
It seems you may have not read what I said. I used the dictionary definition of the word "moral' which is: "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character." (from Google). That's what the Code is about. I never said anything, and the code does not contain anything, about judging others. You are right about it not being possible. The Code is righteous but nobody that has a physical body could possibly adhere to it.

The first two premises of the moral code (or call it ethics code, it's the same) say in different words exactly what you said: ""Do NOT do to others what you don't want done to you!" Ever! Period! No exceptions, no conditions, no insane judgment!"

The basic claim of my post is that all forms of life are morally equal (they have equal value for the purpose of determining right and wrong conduct); therefore all living beings must respect the free will, the life, and the well-being of all other living beings the same as they respect their own free will, life, and well-being.

The reason for this claim is the fact that all living beings consist of (or are made up of) the same fundamental substance as all other living beings are. We are all made of the same thing. Some say it is all energy. Some say it is all consciousness. I believe the fundamental substance we are made of is alive energy. Whatever the case may be, in a way, what we do to others we do to ourselves.

Namelesss
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Namelesss » November 21st, 2017, 8:30 pm

BlindedWantsToSee wrote:...Whatever the case may be, in a way, what we do to others we do to ourselves.
Couldn't agree more!
All Love is Self Love!
All hate is Self hate!
All judgment is Self judgment!
All that exists is One Self! *__-

"Perhaps it is the curvature of space that, like a funhouse mirror distorting our own reflection, we imagine strangers." - Mythopoeicon

Tat Tvam Asi

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j00p34
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by j00p34 » December 9th, 2017, 7:55 am

I've been thinking about this also for a while. In a different context. What if you could create an Artificial Intelligence decision system that would rule the universe? It would have to optimize decision for a value. If the value would be "life" in general. It would probably fill the universe with bacteria. As that would optimize the amount of life in total. I evaluated some possible values and concluded for now that it should be optimizing for maximal self-awareness over time. Nothing has any value without awareness

BlindedWantsToSee
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » December 11th, 2017, 10:49 am

Interesting, wild ideas! They would have never occurred to me. I don't think I would trust a machine to make life and death decisions for the universe or for sentient beings, though. Thanks for sharing.

Judaka
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Judaka » December 28th, 2017, 3:04 am

Generally when it comes to what is considered "evil" in your view comes in two forms, covert and powerless - child abuse, rape, murder, bullying, stalking and so on. Here, if all the information was known about the deed, society would take action and everything you are suggesting would - at least as far as it is possible - do exactly what your suggesting. Detain the individual, apply stigmas to the individual and so on. So long as nobody knows about it, it's relatively difficult to do anything about it. The victim themselves may be able to do something but that's an issue of courage and strength, something many of these acts strip from individuals with their degrading nature.

The second form of evil is overt and powerful - slave trafficking, evil done by governments, evil done by powerful rebel groups, evil done by corporations and so on. Nothing you've said diminishes these influences, even though many people know about it and disagree vehemently against it - that doesn't change the reality. America, the world's greatest superpower has gone into countries like Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq militarily and even that didn't make any real difference. Powerful police forces have tried to stop drug trafficking, slave trafficking and pedo rings for decades and it's proving itself to be a never ending battle.

I don't think your philosophy is really ANY different from the status quo - it's a very common way of thinking and not just from Western countries. Maybe the majority of the world thinks this way at least if we replace "all life" with human life. So in my view, you are a bit disconnected from reality. To believe that your ideas here are of value.

BlindedWantsToSee
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » December 30th, 2017, 9:22 am

Thanks for sharing your point of view.

The actual point I'm making is that, in life, suffering is unavoidable, precisely because we (all living beings) inflict harm on each other, which is immoral. Inflicting harm on others and being harmed by others (all forms of life included) cannot be prevented. This is the nature of life, and it is wicked. If any of us desire to be righteous, we must reject life.

Judaka
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Judaka » December 30th, 2017, 1:25 pm

I'm responding to your opening statement, which has nothing to do with anything you just said. I think the more common and sensible answer for those who accept your premise is that you don't simply reject something on the basis that it has flaws, my parents are both flawed but isn't loving them despite those flaws more "righteous" than rejecting them? Life isn't perfect but it has some redeeming qualities, rejecting imperfection seems an ironic thing for an imperfect being to do.

BlindedWantsToSee
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » December 31st, 2017, 3:43 am

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

At first look, what I just said seems to have nothing to do with my opening statement, but it is actually, by strict logic, the natural conclusion we must arrive at, if we care about justice and being of a good moral character.

You are right, it does seem ironic for imperfect beings to reject imperfection, but it is doable; and it is absolutely necessary, if we are to better ourselves and attain perfection.

You are also right about loving your parents despite their flaws. However, lets not confuse loving people with condoning evil doing. For example, if your parents kill people for fun, and in addition they are slowly poisoning you to keep you under their control, you should still love them, but you should get away from them and not allow them to keep doing harm to you.

If you do nothing to stop them, you are just as guilty of that evil doing as they are, because you are participating (you are a part of the abomination) even though you could choose to remove yourself from it.

Judaka
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Judaka » December 31st, 2017, 10:10 am

What is it in the same context, you are doing to stop "the nature of life" from causing suffering? How does rejecting it achieve this? If you are not doing anything to stop the suffering life causes then aren't you by your own logic, guilty of it?

I am not sure whether you want to attain the truth or if this is just a self-indulgent, grandiose philosophy of yours but when it comes to concepts such as justice, righteousness, perfection, good moral character and such, the bar for achieving these things is something we ourselves set. These concepts don't exist in reality, what you are doing is making an argument of validity. You are the judge, jury and executioner of these concepts and whether people succeed or fail to meet your standards is as entirely dependent on their actions as it is the standards you have set.

Logical correlations or deductions sound nice in theory but since they are premised around entirely subjective proclamations, all you are doing is identifying the validity of an argument (opinion) in a context (subjective premise). All I would need to do is disagree about your ideas of guilt, rights and justice and this discussion would come to a standstill where nobody can prove the other wrong. Such a flimsy argument shouldn't be valued for its strength, rather by its utility. So I wonder does "rejecting life" have any utility?

BlindedWantsToSee
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » January 2nd, 2018, 8:16 pm

You bring up all valid points. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify the ideas I am trying to convey, as they relate to them.

I agree with you regarding the subjectivity of the conclusions I arrive at. They are valid only for those who highly value, or want in their lives, certain experiences and who highly dislike or want to avoid certain (opposite) experiences. The more perfection is desired in the quality of one's life experience, the more relevant this discussion becomes to that person.

I'm talking to people who highly desire or value: Peace in their lives, justice for all, freedom to self determine one's life experiences, good physical health and emotional well-being, respect from others, and perfect happiness in their lives. These people also very much dislike the following: violence, discord, injustice, to be enslaved or be controlled by something other than themselves, to be sick or get injured, emotional pain, despair, frustration, disappointment, heart break; being disrespected, being bullied, abused, ridiculed, etc; and they very much dislike feeling unhappy for any reason.

Most people fit in the description above. But what I wrote is not for most people. Most people don't want perfect anything. The reason is that most people want the good without wanting to give up the bad. I mean, for example, they want respect from others, but they want to be able to disrespect others. They want to be free, but they want to control others. They want what is good for them at the cost of producing what is bad for others. This is a transgression of justice. It is a theory of mine that the whole of our reality is a transgression of justice. All of it summed up together adds up to injustice. My original post gives a hint (which may not be easy to discern) as of why people have negative experiences in their lives. It is not (it was never) my intention to judge anybody or suggest they are morally inferior. I'm the same as everybody else, in a way. I am trying to change though, and I'm trying to help others that may need the help I can provide (which I realize is minuscule).

OK, to answer your questions,

First question: What is it in the same context, you are doing to stop "the nature of life" from causing suffering?
--To stop life from causing further damage to living beings I am taking 3 steps:
1. I am refraining from bringing new living beings into the world (I don't have children, I don't buy pets)
2. I share with everybody I can my points of view, so they can also take the steps they want to take, if any.
3. When I have completed my work here (Of helping others as much as I can. I don't know when that will be) I will do the actual "rejecting" of my own life, which will, of course, be to leave behind my physical body to then deal with my consciousness or soul, if any remains after the destruction of my body.

To the relate my above answer to the example of the psychopathic parents I gave you previously, step 1 would be like hiding my children from my parents, so my children could not be harmed. Step 2 would be like warning my neighbors and everybody else I could about the dangers they are facing. Step 3 would be like leaving the house; getting away from the source of the harm.

Next question: How does rejecting it achieve this?
-- pretty obvious from my previous answer. Of course, I only have control over me. I will put a stop to the suffering which I feel and that which is caused by me to others. Each person is responsible for his or herself. No more, no less.

Next question: If you are not doing anything to stop the suffering life causes then aren't you by your own logic, guilty of it?
-- Yes, I'm guilty of it, with the mitigating factors of steps 1 and 2 which I am taking. It is incredibly hard to take step 3. It is absolutely, logically, correct that somebody with the values I hold reject life in the way I describe because life offers too much of what I don't want and not enough of what I do, leading to much frustration and unhappiness; yet, I can just feel how much psychological resistance my rational side gets from my emotional side: fear, regrets, uncertainty, etc. For me. it will be and act of valor and courage; certainly not one of cowardliness.

Last question: So I wonder does "rejecting life" have any utility?
-- For me, It is obvious that I will never achieve or experience the values I hold most dear without rejecting life. I want perfection, but there is nothing but imperfection here. Not having to deal with the experiences I don't want to deal with is a big PLUS. Also, being in the world comes at a cost. In economics it is called OPPORTUNITY COST. If I'm here, I'm not somewhere else. That somewhere else could be holding what I so much desire.

I take the liberty of including below 2 links. One is to a Word document that contain my actual goodbye letter (suicide note) to my family and friends (again, not ready to give it to them yet, but I do want to share it with the world). It expands on the subjects we are discussing here. It is lengthy, so I made it into a recording (50 minute audio file), so it's easy for people to listen, maybe while commuting. Again, Thank you.

I've had to break up the URL addresses in 4 parts each, to get this website to display the whole addresses. Each starts with "https" and ends in "sharing". You will have to put them back together in order to access the files.

https://drive.google.com/
file/d/
1Ryw38k5SUwGlLkZhITHrp1uAXh1HqQOA/
view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/
file/d/
1m8NdCUR5RuVSp3VPWaQe2dsdE4sWRMtA/
view?usp=sharing

Judaka
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Judaka » January 3rd, 2018, 9:02 pm

Well although dysfunctional, it is always interesting to read a philosophy that has been developed for so long and with such detail. I also have my own philosophy which I have developed for a long time, though perhaps not as long as you. Without knowing you and only reading about this philosophy of yours, I feel it is clear that you and I are extremely different people. I think most people are different from you, however I think we are extremely different. I don't know what you came here seeking, posting your personal suicide note to strangers, is it to spread a philosophy which in your mind, has driven you to suicidal thoughts or do you want me to argue with you? This is a philosophy forum, so I will argue with you but I wonder whether you are interested in hearing that you are wrong - your philosophy, your coming here and your note... it could be that you are just being self-indulgent?

My view is that existential problems have nothing to do with reality, no matter what it is you describe - whether it be to do with aliens, God, wars and poverty. An existential problem is essentially having a problem with a perceived problem. So I am not really interested in a lot of what you had to say, I don't think it matters. There's a million ways to say it but I'm not going to explain it, it's very simple. Even if you describe something such as poverty, we all live in a reality where poverty exists, only you have an existential problem with it. An existential problem is having a problem with a problem and what you have is definitely an existential problem - seeing as you are talking about committing suicide.

Your entire philosophy, despite you telling me that you are rejecting imperfection in order to better yourself and attain perfection, actually has no solution to the problems it presents. You have given up, you are saying the benefit of this philosophy is that it will drive you to suicide - which may send you to another world that operates to your image of perfection. To retirate here, you don't buy pets or have children, you share your philosophy which if believed, drives the individual to suicide and then you commit suicide. The greatest irony seems to be, that all you are doing is spreading misery. Your solution is to drive others to suicide and then hurt others by committing suicide yourself. Suicide in no way diminishes the suffering life causes either, so it doesn't diminish your guilt.

I have no intention of addressing your actual argument since it isn't actually causing anyone any problems. If what you say is true, it's true for me too - yet I'm happy. There were some things that I felt were unfair:

1. "We have been" - throughout your note, you keep saying how we have been conditioned to think in certain ways, that problems are treated with the same responses and while I am not saying some of this doesn't occur, if we are being honest then you can't just amalgamate the immense complexity and vastness of human civilisation for the sake of making it an easy punching bag. So for example you talk about positive thinking, I agree that positive thinking is not effective in most circumstances, I have my own opinions about this and I have talked to many others. I can tell you that opinions about it are diverse. A lot of what you have to say about what people think and do, absolutely ignores the vastness of human civilisation. Within hundreds of countries, thousands of cities, countless towns and all of the individuals who reside within them. Give this vastness some respect and give humanity some respect.

2. Similarly about suicide, we are "all brainwashed and indoctrinated"... That's a load of rubbish, I wonder how many people you actually talked to about these ideas you have? I challenge you to actually talk to people about the topic, opinions on the topic are not as hegemonized as you claim.

Whether this is self-indulgence on your part or an actual belief of isolation, you are not alone. Some of your ideas are quite out there but many of them aren't. Don't talk about "we" or "society" as though you aren't talking about a collection of individuals of whom you actually know close to nothing about.

You talk about justice, fairness, right/wrong, winning, freedom and so many concepts. Once again I must reiterate that not a single one of these things are real. You have also decided to care about these things as much as you do (for those you do) and this is what amplifies your feelings to where they are. You've decided life is no good because it doesn't measure up to your preferences but for most people, life is not ideal because it doesn't measure up to their preferences. So I asked, you are thinking and feeling as you do by choice, what is the utility? What you told me, confirms there is no utility. So you are causing yourself suffering, to nobody's benefit and all of it is completely meaningless and subjective.

Finally, I would like to promote the view that there is more to life than happiness. There is value in the diversity of emotions and perceptions we humans are capable of experiencing. Suffering may lead to otherwise unattainable enlightenment, embarrassment may give an individual strength and anger may liberate you from laziness or fear to take action. We can brood, seethe, bemoan and envy without it being unpleasant, maybe that variety can even be enjoyable or sought after. Could it not be that hardship, loss, competition and such, may not be entirely negative influences on our world? Is there no chance that something in between our world and your idea of perfection, is closest to what people need?

Hopefully it is clear by now why I call your philosophy dysfunctional, if you recognise that your feelings are entirely subjective then the fact that it provides no utility, even going so far as to cause misery and lost opportunity proves it is dysfunctional. The only truth your argument can ever possess is validity, hardly something worth throwing away your life for.

BlindedWantsToSee
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » January 5th, 2018, 4:00 am

I would only like to add to our discussion the following:

1. The only objective I have is to share ideas with those who may find them useful; nothing else.

2. You seem to be, at least, slightly insensitive to the real human suffering that exists right now. For you, putting an end to the various forms of suffering people endure throughout the world is not important; but I assure you, for those who are suffering, it is.

3. Promises that "everything will be alright" give false hope; they do not help end suffering. Suicide puts an end to present suffering. It ends what we are experiencing right now to make room for other experiences, or better yet, for no experience at all; because life will never be fair or good.

4. It seems you value negative or unpleasant emotions. We need enlightenment without suffering; we need strength without embarrassment; and we need the drive to take action without having to experience anger or fear. Would that not be a better life? But that is not our reality here, and it will never be that. Humans have been trying to make life "good" for thousands years to no avail. If you and the rest of the world prefer to suffer that's fine with me, but I'm sure there are at least some people who do not appreciate the suffering. Let us not force them.

5. I'm not sure why you find there is no utility in putting a philosophy such as mine into practice. To somebody that wants peace, the absence of violence has utility because that is what they want. The opportunity to obtain peace has utility. That is what I teach.

6. You say my philosophy is dysfunctional. Is not the world, governments, economies, families, the education system of many countries, an society as a whole a lot more dysfunctional than trying to find truth, and being fair to everybody, and respect all forms of life and each other, of course, and being responsible for your own person? etc? The world is backwards!

Thanks for participating in this discussion with me. I sincerely wish you all good things, and I hope you never experience any of the horrible things some of our brothers and sisters experience around the world. By the way, the subjective reality is the only reality we can be sure of. There may not be anything "out there". It may all be a product of our hallucinations. Our subjective life is very important.

Judaka
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Judaka » January 5th, 2018, 5:00 pm

1. The only objective I have is to share ideas with those who may find them useful; nothing else.
I've yet to see anything useful about your ideas, they spread misery and nothing else. Your suicide will hurt people who know you and if you are able to convince others to suicide it will bring suffering to their loved ones. How do you think the parents and friends of those you are able to convince will feel, should that person decide there is no value in life and decides to kill themselves? Your suicide note is filled with argumentative, accusatory language, directed at society, capitalism, the government and so on, what do your ideas do but inspire rage and despair towards the injustices you perceive? I struggle to ascertain the origin of your confidence here, why do you not look for a better way?

As I said before, most people view life as unideal, this is a philosophy forum and I'd think not a single person here doesn't have views about how the world could be made a better place. Seldom will you find people who argue for making the world a worse place. Never have I come across a single person in my life, who advocated for something, believing it would make the world a worse place or for the sake of making the world a worse place. The context always varies... religion, values, culture, race, politics, economics, technology, legislative, domestic, law enforcement, welfare, freedom and this list goes on forever. You've decided on your niche, now you're as sure as everyone else that you have the answer.

Here's what I believe, I'm a nihilist and I believe there is no meaning to life... The values people live by don't have any meaning either, there is no benefit to them beyond what can be observed empirically. All of the anguished and hate caused by value worship has no upside, the frustration caused to you by your perception of fairness, right/wrong, winning, perfection and so forth, there's absolutely no upside. There's no special place in the sky for people who lived by the right values and no awful place below for those who didn't. I don't think people understand the difference between objective and subjective, once you understand just how much of what we believe is subjective, I believe it can be liberating. Everything becomes malleable, now you can believe on the basis that it may bring you an intended result.

That is part of my answer to how the world can be made a better place. I am not defeated by what is not as I wish, I'm inspired by it.

I am interested in practical resolutions to problems, I'm not offering you or anyone else an "everything will be alright" but life is going to continue whether you like it or not. You preach to me about the suffering of others but you know that life is going to continue with or without you. I don't think like you, my answer isn't appropriate for you and that's why I stipulated to begin with that you and I are extremely different. However if you care so much about the suffering of others, why would you leave without doing anything? You're an intelligent guy, you don't need me to tell you that posting a wall of text on a barely active philosophy forum isn't going to make a difference to the people you're talking about.

Your philosophy being dysfunctional and the world being unideal are not mutually exclusive things, I believe that the only thing I can tell you is that your philosophy does NOT achieve what you are claiming it does. If you want to create a site on the web/deep web about how to kill yourself peacefully and help people who are in a similar situation to you, then at least what you're saying would make sense. All I am trying to do is open your eyes to two things. Firstly your philosophy is dysfunctional and secondly that your philosophy is unnecessary. You say the world is full of suffering but you are not being the change you would want to see in the world, you are just adding to the misery.

If all you want to do is say to yourself "I've created a thread on a forum, now I've contributed to the world and that's gunna give me the confidence I need to go through with it" then okay. I am insensitive, I don't really care about the suffering it will cause to those who care about you. I believe in all of these things which are irreconcilable with your beliefs - what does it matter though? You could be happy, spread happiness and give aid to your "brothers and sisters" in need - in whatever way you think you are capable. As for suicide, it's hypocrisy - if your philosophy advocated suicide in a different way, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If you said "**** the world and everyone in it, I'm out" then it wouldn't be me here telling you that you shouldn't do it. That's not what you said though, that's why I'm lost.
Humans have been trying to make life "good" for thousands years to no avail. If you and the rest of the world prefer to suffer that's fine with me, but I'm sure there are at least some people who do not appreciate the suffering. Let us not force them.
Firstly I go to sleep happy, spend all day happy and go to sleep happy. I am not alone here, many people are happy. When I was 12-14 I was bullied severely and I was depressed, I threatened suicide to my parents and had to see various psychologists. My school was so sure I was self-harming, I got sent to the school counsellor for tapping my arm with an empty water bottle in class. When I was 14, I changed my life by embracing nihilism and utilising the malleability of values, to change my perception of myself and the world into something that allowed for self-esteem. I stopped thinking of myself as a loser, I started to take pride in what I had going for me and I found ways of using negative emotions to stand up for myself, rather than using them to destroy myself.

I feel completely in control of my own mood, disappointment, frustration, humiliation, negativity... I feel in control of how these things affect me. I don't have to take it out on myself anymore. My philosophy didn't instantly resolve all of my problems but I don't feel my happiness can be touched by anything anymore. I didn't tell you this story for you to scrutinise over its validity, nor is it me telling you to become like me. This was my answer which I intend to share with people in the future, to help people who were suffering like I was. I'm not stopping anyone from committing suicide but I know things aren't as bleak as you say, there are alternatives.

I hope that you can come out of this discussion, with a fire in your belly to do something constructive - even if it isn't something I would approve of or do myself. I am genuinely more concerned about the dysfunctional nature of your philosophy than your intention to commit suicide, that's just the kind of person I am. If all you are here to do is share your views with those who may find them useful then perhaps what I have to say is unwelcome, though I don't think you'll find anyone like that here.

BlindedWantsToSee
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » January 5th, 2018, 6:16 pm

I agree, there are options, and I genuinely respect other people's right to choose any option they prefer, even if completely opposite to the one I'm choosing. I consider your intention of helping others, people who may now be suffering like you once did, a noble one. Thanks again, and good luck.

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Zarathustra2008
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Zarathustra2008 » January 5th, 2018, 9:42 pm

BlindedWantsToSee wrote:
October 23rd, 2017, 3:51 pm
Albert Tatlock wrote: Just the same as it already is then.
Well, I don't think any of us is complying fully with the requirements of righteousness. I don't believe it is possible to do it, at least not by anybody who has a physical body. We all enslave and eat other living beings (animals, plants). However, karma will make us pay for that transgression to the code. This is really unfair and not righteous, but that's the way karma works. Whether we like it or not, for every action we take there is an equivalent reaction that will be done to us at some point in time.
Does karma exist?

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