Morals, Morality and God

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Thinking critical
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Thinking critical »

tommarcus said
Finding that purpose and the resulting meaning which it gives our lives is a given. We can certainly find meaning without a god and without God's help. But that meaning might not be anything close to our true purpose. Therefore, whatever meaning we find may be seriously flawed.
This type of unhealthy thinking or philosophy is why I am so greatful that my parents chose not to expose me to religion as a child.

To indroctrinate a child with this mindset is truly the epitome of what Richards Dawkins refers to as " child abuse". I could not imagine a world where I actually believed that the purpose of my existence was one that was imposed on me by a god (that someone invented) and that by knowing that purpose it would make my life meaningful.

The idea of such concepts are empty and void of any real value. Most parents will agree that the most meaningful thing they will ever experience is the love for their children and loving, caring and protecting your children becomes the purpose of your existence.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

tommarcus wrote: August 20th, 2018, 10:17 am Karpel Tunnel,

Your point is well taken. But if God is not the ultimate perfect being, then he or she is something less which implies that that being is less than God.
Or that God is not some mathematical perfection. IOW somewhere in the development of monotheism certain people decided to turn everyhing absolute, infinite, perfect and omni - and these now seem, to many, to be the qualities that MUST be part of God. Even though there are many indications, even in the scripture of the monotheisms that the God in question does not act like these latter added on characteristics.
I don't know how I can or you can deduce this. I understand why it seems off. But why should some being vastly different from me, act like what I Think a good person would act like. Is it possible there could be factors only God would realize.


A kid seeing a doctor responding to someone having trouble breathing might Think the doctor is a serial killer.

Now I know this kind of logic can be used to justify all sorts of crap. But I don't Think at the same time I know what a God must be like. Nor that that God must fit my sense of the good.
Logic has to do with how well portions of an argument hold together. I see no way to demonstrate logically that God must be good. Though I happen to think God is.
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by tommarcus »

To indoctrinate a child with anything, whether it be religious, atheist or worst of all neglect is not what any parent should be doing. Parents or anyone who are responsible for teaching children have a responsibilty to teach them how to think not what to think. But leave it to a C minus scientist like Richard Dawkins to only focus on his pet hatred of religion. An example of his lack of authority.

I was given a religious education and because of it I enjoy today debating philosophy or religion more than I do watching a football game (American football). Further that same religious training taught me never to stop thinking and searching. As a result, I have no problem questioning religious or atheist arguments which defy reason no matter how old or venerated.

At the human level, to say that we have only one purpose is myopic. We have multiple purposes. I know that I do. The question is, what is the higher level purpose for which I was created from which my actions flow? However, if I was not created but was just some accident of nature, then that higher purpose does not exist. Each person's purpose is what they want it to be. Based on the daily news, for millions of people the meaning which they have chosen for themselves is dysfunctional to put it mildly.

Further, if I have free will and my actions are not a function of determinism, contrary to Hawkins thinking, I am in no way obliged to operate according to a God's purpose for me. The question is, is that a smart thing to do?

Now it is a good possibility that human beings will never completely understand God. Too many unscrupulous religious and non-religous people use that belief as a basis for allowing any belief about God. They can put any idea about God that serves their purposes and can deflect any criticism by simply claiming that nobody really knows. This thought process is warped. If it were applied to other subjects for which knowledge is incomplete it would be laughable.

There are certain attributes of God which should be a given. God, and not some creature in a cave, must have the highest virtue. If not, then many others with a higher virtue would be superior to God because of this superiority. This would contradict any reasonable definition of God.
Fooloso4
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Fooloso4 »

tommarcus:
They can put any idea about God that serves their purposes and can deflect any criticism by simply claiming that nobody really knows.
This is exactly what you are doing. The fact that you think your purpose is divinely given does not make you different, this is what they believe as well.
This thought process is warped.
And yet you persist.
There are certain attributes of God which should be a given.
Apparently you think it is your purpose to give God these certain attributes.

Your perfect God you do not know handing down handing down a perfect moral laws you do not possess. Perfectly pointless.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Fooloso4 wrote: August 21st, 2018, 11:04 pm tommarcus:
They can put any idea about God that serves their purposes and can deflect any criticism by simply claiming that nobody really knows.
This is exactly what you are doing. The fact that you think your purpose is divinely given does not make you different, this is what they believe as well.
This thought process is warped.
And yet you persist.
There are certain attributes of God which should be a given.
Apparently you think it is your purpose to give God these certain attributes.

Your perfect God you do not know handing down handing down a perfect moral laws you do not possess. Perfectly pointless.
This is a pretty old argument, that you are having:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

― Epicurus

In a world where morals are relative and subjective, and in a world that obviously contains evil, one has to ask what possible meaning has a concept "God".
Epicurus remains unanswered.
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Thinking critical
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Thinking critical »

To indoctrinate a child with anything, whether it be religious, atheist or worst of all neglect is not what any parent should be doing. Parents or anyone who are responsible for teaching children have a responsibilty to teach them how to think not what to think. But leave it to a C minus scientist like Richard Dawkins to only focus on his pet hatred of religion. An example of his lack of authority.
It is not so much the religious teachings that I am criticising, I do see value in some Christian philosophies. It is the idea of absoloutism which is often associated to god which devalues the state of human existence. Only god knows the ultimate purpose, only faith in god leads to a maximumily meaningful life, god is necessary for objective morality these types of ideologies may serve a utilitarian purpose to those who are experiencing some sort of existential crisis and are incapable of excepting anything less than an absolute resolution, however such arbitrary concepts are void of any value, they are not capable of expressing any real meaning.
An ultimate purpose or rules to living a meaningful life is grounded on ideologies which humans have created who have then assigned them to a concept described as god, these are constructs built upon more constructs with zero epistemological accountability.
To then impose ideas such as "what ever purpose we find maybe seriously flawed" as a method of swaying one to except a specific dogma, is to a child a form of abuse.
This mentality may prevent the child from searching for something that he/she finds meaningful, depriving the child of what it feels like to experience a purpose in life.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by ThomasHobbes »

tommarcus wrote: August 21st, 2018, 9:59 pm To indoctrinate a child with anything, whether it be religious, atheist or worst of all neglect is not what any parent should be doing.
That is ALL we do, as society, as parents, as a culture.
tommarcus
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by tommarcus »

ThomasHobbes

There is a big difference between indoctrinate and teach.
tommarcus
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by tommarcus »

Thinking critical,

There is actually a fair amount of commonality in our last two comments. As you and I stated, anyone, including children, should be encouraged to never stop sesrching for meaning, truth or knowledge. However, being taught a religion or atheism doesn't necessarily imply that you must stop thinking for yourself. My religious teaching actually encouraged such thinking.

I whole heartedly agree that ideas, beliefs, religious or atheistic teachings should not be imposed. I take it one step further in that I object to such teachings which defy reason. In particular, I object to rediculous concepts of God regardless as to whether someone believes in his or her existence or not. That is another big subject. But if we are going to debate about God or God's actions, then we must define what we are talking about.

If God created the universe and us, an important "if", then who else would know what our overall purpose is other than the one who created us. And why would God create us in such a way which is conflict with that purpose? This is contradicts the nature of a supreme being even though many religions preach this contradiction. Therefore, our searching should take us towards our creator, and what is consistent, like it or not. If one thinks that we were not created by God or that God does not exist and that we are an accident of nature, then he can have fun debating with some of the wide range of ideas as to our purpose in life. Or take the nihilist approach and claim there is no meaning. This to me is just as great a danger to true searching as brainwashing. It has openned the door to nonsense and even tyranny and destruction.
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Thinking critical
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Thinking critical »

tommarcus wrote: August 22nd, 2018, 10:20 pm If God created the universe and us, an important "if", then who else would know what our overall purpose is other than the one who created us. And why would God create us in such a way which is conflict with that purpose? This is contradicts the nature of a supreme being even though many religions preach this contradiction. Therefore, our searching should take us towards our creator, and what is consistent, like it or not. If one thinks that we were not created by God or that God does not exist and that we are an accident of nature, then he can have fun debating with some of the wide range of ideas as to our purpose in life. Or take the nihilist approach and claim there is no meaning. This to me is just as great a danger to true searching as brainwashing. It has openned the door to nonsense and even tyranny and destruction.
The idea that a god created the Universe then 13.8 billion years later decided to intentionally create humans with a specific purpose is a big claim which not only conflicts with Astro physics and evolution but also runs into some serious consequences in regards to the nature of the Universe itself.
These are my criticisms of this particular idea.
1) If this version of god intentionally creates things to serve a purpose, such as Universes and humans it follows that god is responsible for the creation of all things and that all things are designed to serve a purpose. Therefore it follows that the same god which created humans also created cancer, the same cancer that slowly and painfully causes agonising death to hundreds of millions of people including infants.
If god does not create baby killing cancer, how do you know?
If you believe he is responsible yet claim we can't understand his reasoning, that means god is ineffable. If god is ineffable, how do you know we were created with a purpose?

2)If humans were intentionally created, then the Universe must have been intentionally created to cater for us. This means god somehow influences causality so that Galaxies with stars form, then solar systems form with planets the right distance from the sun so that atmospheres form so the right conditions are met for life to emerge. God must then control environmental influences to navigate natural selection so that eventually humans will evolve. If god controls nature, then god is responsible for every natural disaster which has killed an maimed hundreds of millions of humans throughout history.
If god is not responsible how do you know?
If he is but the reasons are beyond our comprehension, again god is ineffable and you should have nothing more to say about the nature god.

An accident of nature simply means that the outcomes of natural causality were unplanned or not intentional. This particular narrative is common to the theistic tounge as an attempt to devalue the facts of a naturalistic approach to understand the origins of both life and the Universe itself. It tends to associate the idea of accident with mistake. This being said, the life of an unplanned child is no less meaningful or valuable than that of a planned one, so regardless of wether or not we are consequences of nature or gods, life itself is just as meaningful.

I struggle to see how an atheistic word view could really hinder ones ability to find meaning and purpose in their life? If anything the absence of belief in such ideologies promotes clarity. Clarity in the fact that they would accept that the search for meaning and purpose is grounded introspectively within the human experience.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
tommarcus
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by tommarcus »

Good points.

I don't see how what happened prior to the creation of the universe could conflict with astrophysics and evolution which are a part of the universe which was created. As such, the laws associated with the universe could not be in contradict the laws that previously existed.

You are absolutely correct. If God created the universe, then God is totally responsible for what he or she created. So too is my mother totally responsible for my birth into this world. What a horrible person she was. I experience pain, suffering, work extremely hard, will suffer probably from cancer or heart disease if I am not attacked by a terrorist first and then die. Of course she has an excuse in that she is not the most powerful being in existence.

Good has an excuse also. Even God cannot defy logic. He can't create a square circle. So why is there so much pain in the world? Couldn't he have done a better job? No,. This is the best world possible. Why? In a word, freedom. How much do we value our freedom? It has become an important issues In our discussion. We have valued our freedom over millions of years. Freedom to travel. To live where we want. To eat, sleep, thiink and do what we want. And many of those decisions have resulted in significant pain and suffering.

So let's help God and construct a world without pain and suffering God cannot let me live where I want. God cannot allow me to live on the side of a volcanoes, on an earthquake fault or in a potential storm area, so no beach. Got to stay away from people so I dont catch a disease. Good can't allow me to eat what I want, can't get fat. Can't be allowed to think what I want, what better way to avoid depression. I want God to choose my wife and kids, enough said. No traveling, can't have an accident. God must control my actions so I don't do anything evil.

But enough, why doesn't God send me directly to some kind of heaven and skip this evil, painful world. Let him or her take care of me every second forever. Sound like fun? Not for me. I want my freedom. A little freedom for a short time and its associated pain is worth more to me than living in a cocoon forever. And God has no logical choice anymore than my mother. Both needed to let me go and be free to make my own decisions right or wrong. This world is very comprehensible to me.

If God created the universe, I don't know why he would create inanimate objects like rocks for the sake of the rock. If he wasn't going to create living beings, then why create anything? Did she want toys?

I agree with your point regarding the meaningfulness and purpose of accidents of nature and man's ability to create his own meaning in this situation.. My point is that such meaning is not as high or as consistent with our being as the ultimate purpose that a supreme creator would have

Atheism should be treated like any other system of beliefs or religion. It should have the same freedom and the same criticisms. Whether one wants to impose their beliefs in God or their nonbelief in God, it should be subject to the same requirements of argumentation and same questions regarding motivation.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by ThomasHobbes »

tommarcus wrote: August 23rd, 2018, 10:54 am Atheism should be treated like any other system of beliefs or religion.
You are missing the point entirely.
The point is to reject ALL belief.
Atheism is a rejection of belief, not a system of belief at all. Certainly not a religion.
Being an atheist means not having to have a religion.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by ThomasHobbes »

tommarcus wrote: August 22nd, 2018, 9:45 pm ThomasHobbes

There is a big difference between indoctrinate and teach.
When you teach ANY belief, you're indoctrinating. Most of what schools do is indoctrinate a system of myths, self generating assumptions created by our culture which self replicates.

Teaching ought to be providing a child with skills to find out.

"England","America", or any other nation are myths as fabricated as any god. And when we tell a child they are "English" we are indoctrinating a myth.
When you think about it, there is very little open-minded "teaching", it's mostly indoctrination.
Even when you teach a system of facts such as maths you are indoctrinating a child with an assumption that maths is an essential part of understanding the world. This is a modern belief. It "trains" children in money, and timekeeping so that they become good workers and useful members of society. This is indoctrination.

Asserting that maths is teaching and religious studies is indoctrination is a matter of opinion and would depend on the methods more than the content.
Fooloso4
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Fooloso4 »

tommarcus:
Good has an excuse also.
Good has an excuse? Good grief! Or did you mean God has an excuse? Why would a perfect being need an excuse? Who does he need to excuse himself to?
Even God cannot defy logic.
Why not? As a formal system logic requires internal consistency, but you are not talking about a formal system. The application of logic to the world is fraught with problems.
So why is there so much pain in the world? Couldn't he have done a better job? No,. This is the best world possible. Why? In a word, freedom.
Nonsense. This is an old and tired argument without traction. Some pain is caused by human action but a great deal of it is not.
So let's help God and construct a world without pain and suffering
A perfect God needs no help. Whether we need God's help and whether we receive God's help are another matter.
Atheism should be treated like any other system of beliefs or religion.
As TH pointed out, atheism is not a system of beliefs (although I do not agree with him that it is a rejection of ALL belief, just theistic belief). This is another tired argument that has failed.
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Aragwen
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Aragwen »

The world doesn't contain evil it contains evil people.

The question of God's sovereignty started in heaven, He could have stopped evil being committed by killing us off which He considered doing on a couple of occasions but He always found at least one righteous human . I suppose most philosophers might argue that it would have been better to kill one righteous man than to allow all the misery that followed in which case Epicurus wouldn't have been around to write anything.

Instead God allowed His first creation, that which He loved above all else to die a terrible death to give us a second chance unfortunately not many are taking up the offer.
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