Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

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Greta
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Greta » January 20th, 2014, 11:46 pm

Spiral, I agree about the arbitrariness of the life and death decisions we make on behalf of small animals. I've wondered about the inconsistency and injustice I mete out on animals entering my territory. For instance, if it's a harmless creature, readily caught by hand like a moth or slater, then I evict it.

Meanwhile I kill cockroaches, that are also fairly easy to catch, but I kill them because I find the notion of holding a cockroach in my hand icky, even though it's theoretically no worse than holding a big beetle (which I evict rather than kill).

I always try to catch large spiders in my house and release to the garden because they help control insect numbers. I am effectively using the animal to do killing for me, so I'm not "blameless" there either. If it was a funnel web, redback or white tailed spider then I would try to kill it. The rationale there is risk management.

Flies and mosquitoes are too intrusive so I will usually kill, although if there's an open window and it's easier to shepherd the animal out of the house then I'll take that option.

Snails and slugs are evicted from the house because they are easy to catch and way too icky to kill indoors ... unless they overbreed in my garden, in which case I do crush them.

As for ants, I've been doing battle with them for years now but so far I have resisted getting in a pest controller. I've tired of the senseless slaughter and am now saving the little carcasses and checking ant recipes on Google :) I'm probably mad but what else in new?

Wasps sometimes try to build nests over my front door. With them I become a ruthless exterminator. Risk management again.

Moving up the chain, but still qualifying as vermin, I have no qualms about killing rats or mice found in my home. They are too difficult to catch alive and, if released, they are smart enough to come right back - or start bothering neighbours.

That leaves me with a hotch potch of fairly arbitrary decisions about whether I condemn marauding critters to death or not - safety, health, comfort, convenience, aesthetics, risk management, utility. My reasoning is all over the place.
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Dukedroklar » January 21st, 2014, 3:24 am

Spiral Out wrote: So then you have no problem with my act of burning down the entire nest of Yellow Jackets after one of them had stung me.
No I do not. I might not have used fire but it is definitely debatable if fire or spray would cause more suffering but that is a matter of opinion. They are a definite threat depending on your situation. If I were single then I would leave them alone and observe them in my spare time for pleasure. However, having children now, I would not take the risk as children are too careless and would almost certainly aggravate them to attack.
Spiral Out wrote: By the way, I shown over and over again that Humans are merely entities acting on their collection of desires and fears. We are that simple. If you pay extremely close attention to what people say and do, you'll realize this too.
Umm, actually you made a simple statement to this effect and showed no real examples let alone multiple times. Regardless, we disagree on this issue as I stated in my previous response I believe that is an over simplification.

@greta
I respect your attempts to do the right thing as you see it. I also appreciate your ability to extend compassion to this level. One thing I will say is do what you think is right and you can't go wrong. You may make a mistake, but it'll never be wrong if you catch my drift.
You're taught to obey... Learn to disobey. You're taught to believe they have the answers... learn to doubt. You're taught meek is good... learn meek is evil. You're taught to be passive... learn to FIGHT!

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Greta
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Greta » January 21st, 2014, 8:27 am

Dukedroklar wrote:I respect your attempts to do the right thing as you see it. I also appreciate your ability to extend compassion to this level. One thing I will say is do what you think is right and you can't go wrong. You may make a mistake, but it'll never be wrong if you catch my drift.
Thanks Duke, but I'm not sure the ants would agree. I will probably have to relent and get a pest controller but in the meantime I'm experimenting with regular culls to see if I can keep their numbers in check (they are currently trying to take my front stairs as territory and I won't give up without a fight).

My considerations about avoiding excessive force mean nothing to the ant colony. To them I'm no doubt The Evil Giant Shadow - a homicidal David Attenborough with hair and boobs. When I collect enough mini-carcasses I'll Google up some recipes. Great white huntress. Before the turn of the century, a far higher percentage of people will be relying on insects for sustenance than is the case today.
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Dukedroklar
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Dukedroklar » January 21st, 2014, 10:39 am

Greta wrote: Thanks Duke, but I'm not sure the ants would agree. - My considerations about avoiding excessive force mean nothing to the ant colony. To them I'm no doubt The Evil Giant Shadow - a homicidal David Attenborough with hair and boobs.

Of course not. To the rabbit, wolves are monsters. To the wolf cubs, their mother is good. Unlike most animals we have the ability to experience compassion for things outside our normal instincts. Dolphins are one example of a creature that seems to exhibit human like compassion though. Evidenced in the occurrences of rescuing humans from the sea for example.

In this situation it does boil down to territory. I find it neither right nor wrong to protect ones territory.
Greta wrote: Before the turn of the century, a far higher percentage of people will be relying on insects for sustenance than is the case today.

You are probably right on that. Hmmm, soylent green is actually made of insects?
You're taught to obey... Learn to disobey. You're taught to believe they have the answers... learn to doubt. You're taught meek is good... learn meek is evil. You're taught to be passive... learn to FIGHT!

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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Stormcloud » January 21st, 2014, 11:05 pm

Greta, ant recipes? Dont they say 'you are what you eat?' :lol: Duke, if insect pills finish up making us ill we can always take soylent green's final option - beats suffering, what? :lol:

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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Theboombody » January 26th, 2014, 11:21 am

I was wondering if dirt was shown to experience pain through some scientific analysis, would we just shrug that off since we don't see the pain dirt feels when we step on it, or change the way we travel.
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Spiral Out » January 26th, 2014, 11:33 am

Theboombody wrote:I was wondering if dirt was shown to experience pain through some scientific analysis, would we just shrug that off since we don't see the pain dirt feels when we step on it, or change the way we travel.
As a general rule, a Human's empathy for any entity diminishes proportionally to how similar its features are to ours.
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Greta
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Greta » January 28th, 2014, 7:30 pm

Dukedroklar wrote:
Greta wrote: Thanks Duke, but I'm not sure the ants would agree. - My considerations about avoiding excessive force mean nothing to the ant colony. To them I'm no doubt The Evil Giant Shadow - a homicidal David Attenborough with hair and boobs.
Of course not. To the rabbit, wolves are monsters. To the wolf cubs, their mother is good. Unlike most animals we have the ability to experience compassion for things outside our normal instincts. Dolphins are one example of a creature that seems to exhibit human like compassion though. Evidenced in the occurrences of rescuing humans from the sea for example.

In this situation it does boil down to territory. I find it neither right nor wrong to protect ones territory.
Actually, there are quite a few examples of inter-species bonds, especially when one of the animals is a baby. Even at lower orders of life symbiosis is everywhere, which I suppose is a lower order animals' version of friendship - a bit like work colleagues :wink:

Agree about territory, I'm okay with the ant nest messing up my lawn but I draw the line at letting them in my house.
Greta wrote: Before the turn of the century, a far higher percentage of people will be relying on insects for sustenance than is the case today.
You are probably right on that. Hmmm, soylent green is actually made of insects?[/quote]
Correct. Soylent Brown was made from endangered animals. Later they brought out the new environmentally friendly "green" product with a smaller footprint on nature ...
Stormcloud wrote:Greta, ant recipes? Don't they say 'you are what you eat?' :lol: Duke, if insect pills finish up making us ill we can always take soylent green's final option - beats suffering, what? :lol:
I failed, Storm. For a start the collection was tedious and, in it's little way, a tad gruesome. Then I noticed mold forming on the little unrefrigerated carcasses and decided it was all more trouble than it was worth :shock:

If we are what we eat, and most western people eat cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens, fish and a range of plants, then ...
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Thrylix » January 10th, 2015, 12:25 pm

Discards wrote:Obviously you think it's right, so who cares? Hopefully, you will be stepped on by aging and the deterioration of your body and when you no longer have the physical capacity to resist the universal connectivity of all living and non-living things, your mind - in it's final throws of confusion and existence - will hark back to the day you stepped on all those ants - replacing this hubris you present with remorse. And though with sincere regret you will likely feel sorry for those ants, you will also call out for someone to save you - as they likely writhed beneath your shoe wishing that - by whatever grave chance of fate had come upon them - that they were not in such exceeding amounts of pain. Maybe then, you will find the answer to your question. In the mean time, keep stepping on ants. I'm sure the innocent forgiveness that children receive for this kind of act still applies to young men your age --- NAWT!
Not really looking to be forgiven for stepping on ants. I forgot about this thread. I suppose it is hubris in that I treat ants however I feel like it because I can, but why is that wrong? Compared to them, I'm basically a giant.

Alternative question: if in the future we discover a race of tiny ant-sized beings with the intelligence of humans, complete with cities, buildings, and a lot of the same cultural memes as us, would it be wrong to establish dominance over them? I have to admit, I would be tempted to rule over them with sheer force, although I know that wouldn't be kind. But the chance to become a god would be pretty tempting to me.

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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Wilson » January 13th, 2015, 7:38 pm

This thread is an example of my belief that morals are individual. If you have zero empathy for ants, then crushing them is not immoral. If you have great empathy for all living creatures, then crushing them is immoral. Personally I have a very slight empathy for ants, so would kill them if they were inconveniencing me, without moral angst, but would feel slightly funny about seeking them out and stepping on them for no good reason. But that's just me. For some, killing ants is immoral, for others it isn't. As with every moral question, it's all individual. No absolute answers.

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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Felix » January 31st, 2015, 7:06 am

Itr is possible to communicate with other species, J. Allen Boone's book , Kinship with All lIfe, is one of the better books on the subject - http://www.amazon.cm/Kinship-All-Life-A ... 060609125/
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by LuckyR » February 2nd, 2015, 4:07 am

If it can be justified to kill a person (and it can be) then it definitely can with ants.

So it isn't about the ants, it's about why are you taking their lives. If they are making a trail in your kitchen, it's ok. Ants as a species will do just fine after a little ant bait in one kitchen. OTOH, if you kill ants in their habitat (which isn't your dwelling) , why are you doing that? If you don't have an answer, why do it?
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by HZY » February 5th, 2015, 11:22 pm

Thrylix wrote:I'm 23 years old, had to go to a picnic today. I got up to throw something in the garbage and at the garbage can noticed a horde of ants bustling around a little ant mound. I was bored so I lifted my foot over them and stamped it down. After flattening them and their little home under my shoe, I walked back to the blanket.

When I sat back down, I leaned over to check out all the crushed ants stuck to my foot. My friend and I sort of snickered because the ants I carried through the grass on the bottom of my feet were only half-crushed and squirming in the treads of my running shoe. Then out of nowhere some guy who I didn't know saw me and called me a "white bully" and "inhumane" because I step on ants. I told him to bend down and kiss my stinking feet. I know, not nice, heh.

Now when you've stepping on bugs your whole life like I have, an anthill is no big deal. Meanwhile,I know jains respect all life and believe that my actions are wrong. But how is that explained? I thought they believed in reincarnation but how does that work? Do they believe that bugs are reincarnated from people?

If I'm stepping on someone's aunt joan, is that really such a bad thing? I guess my thoughts would be eh, better luck next time. There was probably a reason why her new home is a patch of mud on the bottom of my size 12 running shoe.

Do you think stepping on bugs is wrong - why or why not?
Well, stepping can go both ways.

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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Lagayscienza » February 8th, 2015, 8:05 am

It might be wrong to step on bugs. It would depend on whether and to what degree bugs can experience well-being and suffering and whether the bug's well-being or suffering were greater than the well-being or suffering you would experience by stepping on or not stepping on the bug. In other words, I think that there is an objectively right answer to such questions but we are not in a position to know what that answer is at this stage. However, as a rule of thumb for daily life I think it's probably morally best to avoid causing suffering where possible where doing so does not cause greater suffering elsewhere.

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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by J G Hunter » February 18th, 2015, 9:59 am

1) Why do you derive pleasure from killing animals? 2) Is there a benefit to leaving these animals, ants, in place that surpasses the benefit you feel you gain of pleasure from their destruction? 3) Do you feel you have a right to kill animals and nobody has a right to stop you? 4) Would you beat your neighbour's pet to death? 5) Why not? If you feel pets are a person's property and therefore are a no go, why did those wild ants suddenly become your property? 6) If you feel it is your right to kill animals, have you made effort to overturn those silly animal cruelty laws? 7) Are animal cruelty laws the only reason that you don't attack people's pets but you are happy to derive pleasure from the death of wild animals who pose you no risk or harm?

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