Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

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Harbal
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Harbal »

LuckyR wrote:
You are correct, I mistyped, it should read: "Thus completely legal and ethical, though perhaps not moral."
How can something be ethical but not moral?

-- Updated March 21st, 2015, 7:57 pm to add the following --
Misty wrote: flies would be crucial to determine death timelines in crimes.
So you are saying that's why the Good Lord made flies?
Steve3007
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Steve3007 »

Mark Twain did not see a future when flies would be crucial to determine death timelines in crimes.
I guess this sounds as though it's probably true. In the same way that, say, William Shakespeare did not see a future in which Arnold Schwarzenegger would be governor of California.
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Misty
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Misty »

Harbal wrote:
LuckyR wrote:
You are correct, I mistyped, it should read: "Thus completely legal and ethical, though perhaps not moral."
How can something be ethical but not moral?

-- Updated March 21st, 2015, 7:57 pm to add the following --
Misty wrote: flies would be crucial to determine death timelines in crimes.
So you are saying that's why the Good Lord made flies?
No, I am saying that MT saw flies as pests and was unaware or their future usefulness. I have no idea the scope of why the Good Lord created flies.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

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Harbal
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Harbal »

Misty wrote: No, I am saying that MT saw flies as pests and was unaware or their future usefulness. I have no idea the scope of why the Good Lord created flies.
I wonder what purpose Mark Twain served from the perspective of the flies, or the Good Lord's, for that matter.
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Misty
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Misty »

Harbal wrote:
Misty wrote: No, I am saying that MT saw flies as pests and was unaware or their future usefulness. I have no idea the scope of why the Good Lord created flies.
I wonder what purpose Mark Twain served from the perspective of the flies, or the Good Lord's, for that matter.
Someone to pester?
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
Harbal
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Harbal »

Steve3007 wrote: William Shakespeare did not see a future in which Arnold Schwarzenegger would be governor of California.
Are you sure about that? Shakespeare seems to have got most things covered.

-- Updated March 21st, 2015, 9:50 pm to add the following --
Misty wrote: Someone to pester?
Now you're being frivolous.
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Littleendian
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Littleendian »

Thrylix wrote:Do you think stepping on bugs is wrong - why or why not?
I'm not judging you but I believe it is wrong to intentionally harm another animal (or plant, really (*)). I think the "perfect" human being is one whos heart is filled with compassion and love for other creatures, humans and animals, because (s)he sees the fundamental likeness that connects all living things: The desire to stay alive, the ability to suffer, and ultimately the senselessness of that struggle. I don't think it makes much of a difference to the steppee, the organism "ant hill" will be just fine, but I do think it makes a difference in you, in your mind, as the stepper :wink:, and I think your path to enduring happiness gets longer with every creature you intentionally harm.

(*) Here it gets tough because our own self-interest to stay alive gets in the way...
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LuckyR
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by LuckyR »

Harbal wrote:
LuckyR wrote:
You are correct, I mistyped, it should read: "Thus completely legal and ethical, though perhaps not moral."
How can something be ethical but not moral?
Well, since they are two unrelated things, quite easily. To be ethical something must follow social or another external set of rules, whereas to be moral, something must follow one's internal code.

I would not be violating western ethics by stepping on ants, but I would be morally troubled if I did it for no reason.
"As usual... it depends."
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Thrylix
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Thrylix »

Question though: why does intent even factor into stepping on bugs, given how fragile and insignificant they are compared to the world around them. They die to other bugs, rain, random events. Hell, I feel as though the smell of my feet is enough to kill the little guys.. So why should it bother me to squash them if I feel like it? Is there anything inherently evil or malicious about toying with beings so much less significant than you see yourself as being? Like I said before, compared to them I'm basically a giant.
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LuckyR
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by LuckyR »

Thrylix wrote:Question though: why does intent even factor into stepping on bugs, given how fragile and insignificant they are compared to the world around them. They die to other bugs, rain, random events. Hell, I feel as though the smell of my feet is enough to kill the little guys.. So why should it bother me to squash them if I feel like it? Is there anything inherently evil or malicious about toying with beings so much less significant than you see yourself as being? Like I said before, compared to them I'm basically a giant.
I didn't say it should bother you to do it, I said it does bother me to do it. But, ethically it doesn't bother western ethos if either one of us does it.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Sy Borg »

Thrylix wrote:Question though: why does intent even factor into stepping on bugs, given how fragile and insignificant they are compared to the world around them. They die to other bugs, rain, random events. Hell, I feel as though the smell of my feet is enough to kill the little guys.. So why should it bother me to squash them if I feel like it? Is there anything inherently evil or malicious about toying with beings so much less significant than you see yourself as being? Like I said before, compared to them I'm basically a giant.
LuckyR wrote:I didn't say it should bother you to do it, I said it does bother me to do it. But, ethically it doesn't bother western ethos if either one of us does it.
I have a problem with toying with weaker beings, namely bullying. Sadly, the more benign animals probably get the worst of it because bullies tend to choose easy targets - so venomous, poisonous and clawed animals would seem safest. So I think we should toy with insects to the extent that we'd be prepared to toy with lions, crocodiles or sharks.

I have no drama with killing bugs and rodents to defend our body or resources. However, considering their lives to be insignificant due to their small size and high mortality rate ignores our own existential situation - that we may one day be insignificant compared to an intelligent alien species (and in terms of individual physical size, insignificant to a number of other species here on earth). Hopefully, moral progress will turn out to be an essential component of technologically advanced societies.

I think of insects as interesting (and sometimes annoying) denizens of another dimension of life - a realm where Brownian motion matters, where single molecules matter, where the air is thick enough to break a fall, where each raindrop is like a bucketful and hail akin to boulders - with monstrous terrors everywhere and a high likelihood of at some stage being eaten alive, perhaps during the act of mating. I truly hope they don't feel much. Until we can be sure what they feel or not, it makes ethical sense to err on the side of caution with them, at least within the bounds of practicality.

A funny incident comes to mind. In the 90s I was sharing an old run down inner city terrace house near my work with a few people. The partner of a housemate stayed over most nights like an extra tenant. He was a classic greenie and professional protester type. Then we had a mouse infestation. I was keen to engage in the kind of "shock and awe campaign" that one does when infested with pests. Alas, (let's call him) Fred decides that we must not kill them because they are actually the native mouse, Antechinus.

At one point I was looking out the back door and there was this little mouse face looking at me from over the neighbour's fence. I'm saying, "Come on, you cannot tell me that that is Antechinus!" and he's protesting, "No no no, look at the rounded ears!". I'm trying to explain that native mice don't infest inner city terrace houses to no avail. In the end we all had to move out :lol:

Pardon the offtopic reverie, although rodents raise the stakes somewhat, being much more aware and intelligent. Many people who would not worry about the torture of an insect would no doubt think of the torture of a rodent very differently; other mammals are much more relatable than insects.
Steve3007
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Steve3007 »

I was interested enough to google "Antechinus" after reading this story, because I'd always thought that all native mammals in Australia were marsupials and there weren't any native mice. But I see it's a marsupial mouse. It's fantastic that nature solves all the same problems using a different mechanism.

Anyway, I presume the native marsupial mouse wouldn't infest inner city terrace houses, and colonial mice would because that's the way it usually is with these imperial types who move to a place and start pushing the natives around and nicking their stuff. :D

To link to a current news story: That's why I can't quite regard the recently deposed Robert Mugabe as the two dimensional tyrannical despot he's often painted as. He's no mouse, for sure, but then he was up against his own invading mice: the British colonialists who regarded native Africans as children or animals, to be, at best, sympathetically ruled over for their own good.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Sy Borg »

I know a Zimbabwean fellow who has experienced the country under Mugabe's administration and without. So, without derailing the thread, suffice to say that Mugabe is a problem that will hopefully be solved for the sake of the people of Zimbabwe. Mao and Hitler started off with lofty aims too and then degenerated through the lure and taint of power. Zimbabwe will be much better off without him, but they will have to dig themselves out of another Mugabe hole first.

It's one thing to repel invading mice, another to make your own family of mice suffer through corruption and control lust. It seems that colonialism works best when the original people are largely annihilated, sadly.

Again and again we run into the problem of our ideals and reality. We dream of peace and prosperity but reality keeps forcing us to kill and harm to survive and thrive. The upshot is the superseding of ecosystems and indigenous cultures. In context with the thread, in principle, the less killing and harming we do, the better. There's plenty enough of it going around already.
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Zauber
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Zauber »

Festival classifying actions as right or wrong is very problematic. Is it clearly wrong? How do you decide its Wrong? How do I decide that it is wrong? What criteria do we use for right and wrong. Is there a clear division between right and wrong?
The treatment of animals by us is an interesting topic. Oh by the way we are animals nothing more nothing less.
Lets look at the world as it has existed for most of millennia, excepting the short period in which man has created a dominant niche upon earth. All organisms on this earth have evolved from simpler organisms. All organisms on this earth need to consume plant and animal matter in order to survive. Nature as it exists on earth makes it a necessity to kill things. I believe that the concept of morality and right and wrong does not exist in nature. We are part of nature.
Now I interpret you statement as implying that your motivation makes things right or wrong. So I further deduct that you believe that under some circumstances it is wrong to kill things. I agree with you. I have formed my own rules. My own morality. There is no absolute right or wrong. It is a concept created by humans and varies from person to person.
we can go on and on why do we have rules? How do we have a society that can survive?
Personally I am very sad when I see the natural environment destroyed by human actions. It like we are destroying ourselves and everything that gave rise to us. Do we hate ourselves that much? I am being silly. Perhaps it makes a difference whether we destroy nature willfully out of need or out of spite. It makes no difference to nature.
I get very sad when I see how much people care about the well being of cats and dogs. At the same time they eradicate entire ecosystems and their lifeforms. Some of them with of incredible complexity and intelligence and emotions every bit as apparently complex as our own. Gone for ever and ever. that is our legacy.
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Jose Lazaro
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Re: Do you think stepping on bugs is right or wrong- why?

Post by Jose Lazaro »

You are as good as you deem yourself to be. All moral backbone is designed to fit into a certain culture in order for it to flourish. Morality is a concept, nothing more, nothing less.
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