The Germans and the guilt issue

[Roel]

This topic is based on a documentary which I have seen, in which a German granddaughter was making a documentary about her grandfather, but discovered that he was part of the Waffen-SS.

This topic will deal basically with two related topics: The Germans and guilt. At first I wanted to also include Israel, as there is a relationship between Germany and Israel too, but I just left a short mentioning, as this is in fact a completely different subject.

This topic also deals especially with the non-Germans (of which I am one) and how we regard the Germans.

What surprises me is how much people hate Germans. No, it doesn't surprise me because of the second World War, of course people which aren't German and didn't cooperate with the Germans will hate Germans. But what surprises me is how second and third-generation Germans are still hated. I see it for example in the internet how people can't normally say that they are German without being associated with the second world war. Of course there is a responsibility for the German people for the Second World War, but in my opinion this responsibility or guilt isn't something which can be inherited, I believe that if we would consider the third or second generation Germans as guilty people, we would need to also blame the current young Brits, Americans and others for the biggest war crimes in the history of our world, as everyone who has read some of history will see that it's mostly due to the governments of the United Kingdom and the United States that a lot of horrible things happened in the world. But let's get back to the Second World War. Every rational person will agree that it's wrong what Germany did, but a more difficult question is: if you were a German in Germany in this time, what would you have done? Would you follow Hitler, would you help German jews to find shelter, would you try to flee to another country?

Not only this, there was a lot of propaganda and there was less education which made it possible for, for example the people here, to become philosophically minded people. There also is the problem with food and what's needed for life. The reason why most people nowadays don't really join wars anymore, except for a certain part of the population, is because people live in wellfare nowadays, but if people live in poverty it is much easier to get them to join you. This is also the reason why I wonder in how far we can make the German population responsible, if they were also for a big part manipulated by the elite in Germany. Isn't it normal that if you indoctrinate children in schools with a certain ideology, they will adhere it, just as Stalin did in the Soviet Union? There isn't really that much difference, except for the central aspects of the ideologies, communism was about keeping everyone poor (it said that everyone is equal, but for some reason the leaders had a lot of money to spend and didn't join the equality of their population) and nazism was in the core an ideology based on division of people based on what they look like, in which they tried to make it look intellectual by studying the size of faces and such. There was of course not only in schools, but also on the radio and television a lot of propaganda, just as in modern North Korea you didn't really have access to other ideologies and you could just listen and watch channels which related to the nazistic ideology.

It is a very hard subject to think about if you think of being German yourself, and this is why I don't really understand how easy a lot of people think of Germany and Germans. If you read about German history in the second World War you can simply judge that the SS and other elite groups were evil, based on what we regard as evil. They let other people work, they demonized them and they didn't do a lot themselves. That is how you could summarize every group of bad regimes, you can also find this in North Korea and some other countries.

Like we know, Germany became a socialist country after the war. Most Germans didn't want to be associated with their past anymore and decided to be left-wing. The question however is, why are Germans which were born after or in the war associated with nazism? They didn't fight in the war and although they have a genetic relationship with the people which fought in the war, they don't, except for the NPD and some other minority groups, support the nazistic ideology. Is it that we easily associate people with their past, although they aren't part of it themselves? Can I be responsible for war crimes which my country committed in Indonesia, when it tried to keep Indonesia because of the profit by the resources there for the government while I don't have anything to do with Indonesia or the Dutch people which fought there? In my opinion, it's good that German children and teenagers get education in which they learn about the German past in the Second World War and have to think about the guilt-issue, but there should also be a development in Germany becoming a country which can be regarded as a normal country which also brought in our world philosophers, composers and artists like Hegel, Kant, Heidegger, Mozart, Brecht, instead of only having the association with the Second World War, but I think that our education system has a real fallacy in this too. In history lessons there should of course be told a lot about the Second World War, which is done, but in my opinion there is too less told about the pre-WWII history of Germany, the 40-year war in Germany or the composers, philosophers etc. aren't really talked about, and this might create a false idea about Germany among teenagers and children which will only associate Germany and Germans with the Second World War as they don't learn anything about important German figures before this period, which might be one cause of the problem. One step in the development of Germany becoming a normal country is the relationship between Israel and Germany, the relationship is special as the two countries share a history and nowadays share the same western values.

[Alias]

You've taken a very big bite here. Normally, I wouldn't touch a subject like this, but I have to admire the moxie... and admit that the question is intriguing, though probably more complex than a forum like this can deal with. Still, I'm willing to take a shot, at least at some aspects of it.

What surprises me is how much people hate Germans.

It's not just about WWII. Before that, there was WWI. Before that, there was the Austrian empire. Germany, in its various configurations, has been a major player in European politics, including a dozen wars, for a thousand years. Of course it has traditional enemies, old victims, ex-allies, enviers, wannabe's and long-time rivals. Europe is a small, crowded, smouldering pile of competing nationalisms.

As for America, it's an amnesiac - passionate about the last thing it can remember, which was in the last blockbuster movie; vaguely resentful about the second-last thing it can remember, which was in a lot of movies of the present generation's adolescence. (Peculiar memory-lapse contains Korea and Vietnam.)

Today, Germany is a power again - an economic one, which is what really matters today - and doesn't fall neatly into line with the US or England, yet isn't a declared enemy. Suspicious, what? Today, everybody suspects everybody; allies spy on one another, try to do one another down in business dealings and spite one another in UN decisions. The propaganda is all over the place and the consumers of propaganda are so confused, they find it easier to fall back on a familiar stereotype: Hogan's Heroes.

Also, isn't it convenient to have a single, simple epitome of evil, against which every bad act is measured, to which every new upstart dictatorship (not to mention US president) is compared?

we would need to also blame the current young Brits, Americans and others for the biggest war crimes in the history of our world

No, see, crimes against our enemies are heroic deed and atrocities committed against the third world don't count. (In fact, Iraqi dead are not counted.) History is written by besotted admirers of the victor.

responsibility or guilt isn't something which can be inherited,

Are you sure? Ask the Bible. I'm not being entirely facetious, either: that biblical concept came up with civilized man and has remained: we are a species that holds grudges.

if you were a German in Germany in this time, what would you have done?

Here is another interesting question: What did non-Germans do? How many escaping Jews did the US, Canada, Australia and England take in? When information - gathered at risk of the reporters' lives - was brought out, how did the so-called enlightened world react? For that matter, how did other countries treat Jews and Gypsies, socialists and anarchists, conscientious objectors, Negroes, Doukhobors, Hindus, Mexicans, Maori and eskimos at the time? Just how clean are the rest of our ancestors?

[Teralek]

Hitler raised to power because of the Versailles treaty... shameful Versailles treaty

Love not hate, can change the world. I'm an European federalist who despises nationalism which purpose it to create wars, separatism, hate, xenophobia and wars. I'm probably very much alone. I don't care. The problem with Europe is that everyone thinks of themselves only and not of Europe as the same country... so practically everyone competes with each other... much to the enjoyment of the US. Oregon does not compete with Tennessee... they all cooperate to make America great... that's where they are different.

I love the Germans, and every others who live in various geographical locations. The place where you are born does not define who you are. Only indoctrination and own personality do that.

[Alias]

Teralek: Oregon does not compete with Tennessee... they all cooperate to make America great... that's where they are different.

You don't live next door to the US, do you? Oregon and Tennessee are not even on the same planet! Humans are tribal, not global. That's why the UN - the best idea our species ever had - isn't allowed to work.

Roen: Like we know, Germany became a socialist country after the war. Most Germans didn't want to be associated with their past anymore and decided to be left-wing.

That wasn't a sudden decision; it took a while. Really, they're not socialist, but slightly more enlightened capitalist. It's a natural outcome of prosperity, education and a reasonably well-run democratic process. The majority of citizens will vote for their common self-interest. If they're reasonably well informed and the elected representatives mostly carry out the policies on which they campaign, any democracy will tend toward socialism. The only way to prevent this is for special interests to suborn, corrupt or hijack the process.

[Teralek]

You don't live next door to the US, do you?

No

Oregon and Tennessee are not even on the same planet! Humans are tribal, not global.

America speaks with one voice, one sentiment. Where is the patriotic sense of being European?! No where to be seen!

That's why the UN - the best idea our species ever had - isn't allowed to work.

That wasn't a sudden decision; it took a while. Really, they're not socialist, but slightly more enlightened capitalist. It's a natural outcome of prosperity, education and a reasonably well-run democratic process.

[Wilson]

I'm in the US and don't know anyone who hates the German people. False premise, at least for the US.

[Theophane]

Don't modern Germans denounce Nazism out of good conscience? This is sins-of-the-fathers meets guilt by association, but the alternative is pretending it didn't happen. Since history invariably repeats itself, we cannot afford to forget it.

Am I the only one uncomfortable with Hitler being kept relevant in the 21st century as a comedy plaything?

[Roel]

Don't modern Germans denounce Nazism out of good conscience? This is sins-of-the-fathers meets guilt by association, but the alternative is pretending it didn't happen. Since history invariably repeats itself, we cannot afford to forget it.

Am I the only one uncomfortable with Hitler being kept relevant in the 21st century as a comedy plaything?

I don't know if you have heard about the NPD, but there are still Germans which adhere the Nazistic ideology, which in my opinion has nothing to do with ancient German culture and history. Ancient German history and culture consists of Icelandic language, the Edda, Gothic language and culture, Beowulf, etc. It consisted of a lot of which these are just a few things. Nazis just used things of all kinds of cultures, Aryans were originally Persians and Indians and they suddenly claimed that they were Aryans, which is nonsense, they also took the Swastika from Buddhism (it is just in Buddha statues, but that started a long time ago), they used the ancient-alien theory and claimed that they come from space/atlantis and are a 'superior race'. I don't know how probable the ancient-alien theory is, but that the nazis would be them is complete nonsense. They also saw all Indo-European speaking people as 'superior people', but Polish people and Russians were Untermenschen while they spoke an Indo-European language? And Hungarians were accepted while they didn't speak an Indo-European language, what a joke. In other words, nazism is simply a violent ideology which has nothing to do with real old german culture, it's just a mix of on purpose misinterpreted elements of other cultures.

I don't think that the alternative is pretending it didn't happen. I just say that I saw among people in school that they hated Germans, and the biggest reason was that the only thing they heard about Germans was how they were in the Second World War. I 'm not advocating to completely scrap this, instead we should teach people why human rights are important with this history of Germany, but we should also teach people that Germany is not only nazism.

[Theophane]

Right you are.


BEERFEST!

[Quotidian]

There is still controversy on the question of German civilian (i.e. non-combatant) culpability in the evils of WWII.

See The Germans Knew of the Holocaust (book review, The Guardian, 2001).

See also Hitler's Willing Executioners Daniel Goldhagen.

[Alias]

... there are still Germans which adhere the Nazistic ideology, which in my opinion has nothing to do with ancient German culture and history.

You're absolutely right. It was a made-up mythology, because Hitler wanted a new start, without historical context and kinships - a cult with himself in the center. Most importantly, he wanted a unique German identity, pride, ambition and sense of destiny. (This deliberate invention of a national identity is not unlike the political mythologies of the USSR and the US.) He seriously imagined Germany's future as heir to the Roman empire - even had public buildings designed so as to make picturesque ruins someday, like the classical Greek and Roman ones.

They also saw all Indo-European speaking people as 'superior people', but Polish people and Russians were Untermenschen while they spoke an Indo-European language? And Hungarians were accepted while they didn't speak an Indo-European language, what a joke.

These are adjustments to the political situation as it unfolded. (Not unlike Muhammad's acceptance of 'people of the book' - when that was convenient; could always call them infidels later, if there was a chance of conquering them.) The Nazis needed allies, however reluctant and coerced (could always turn on them later, as they turned on the Russians) so they had to keep changing the cover-story.

there are still Germans which adhere the Nazistic ideology

Also Americans and Brits. But I don't think these Nazis are left over from the mid 20th century - I think most of them are new. Boys who like helmets and bullying; who feel insecure, inadequate, threatened by men of other races and who long for a tougher, braver persona. They're imitators - but no less dangerous.

I don't think that the alternative is pretending it didn't happen.

In Germany itself, there were plenty of Holocaust deniers (Well, who wouldn't rather forget such a past?), and the recent governments have taken a strong stand against them - partly to impress the western allies. There still are deniers in North America, too (predominantly, but not exclusively racists) while, on the other hand, Israel and its western backers use the Holocaust as a blanket justification for whatever military action they carry out. It's become a political icon - just as the distorted images of Hitler have become a moral icon.

I just say that I saw among people in school that they hated Germans,

Again, I wonder whether it's Germans they hate, or even whether that's hate they're expressing. Nazi Germany is their archetypal enemy; the focus that their own national mythology requires. To some extent, for Americans this role has been taken over by Russians, then Arabs, so the enmities are spread out and the older ones fade as the new ones are touted by propagandists.

.... instead we should teach people why human rights are important with this history of Germany, but we should also teach people that Germany is not only nazism.

Indeed, we should teach accurate history, sociology, and geography. We should teach human rights and science and good manners. But power elites have their own interests to serve and the peoples are always ready to believe whatever serves those interests. Hitler got rid of intellectuals: people who care about truth are an impediment to propaganda. In modern America, intellectuals don't need to be killed: it's enough to ridicule them.

[Roel]

There is still controversy on the question of German civilian (i.e. non-combatant) culpability in the evils of WWII.

See The Germans Knew of the Holocaust (book review, The Guardian, 2001).

See also Hitler's Willing Executioners Daniel Goldhagen.

The problem is that there's a focus on Germany in those books while other countries were antisemitic and capable of a holocaust too, this is the reason why claiming that it was in the German blood that they would do a holocaust is something which is doubtable. Why wouldn't France do the same with their same aggressive mentality as the Germans? They actually did in the Vichy regime.

[Jklint]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btlxtf2txPk