A new normative theory and the demandingness objection

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Belinda
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Re: A new normative theory and the demandingness objection

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Daniel McKay wrote:
You are confusing physicalism and determinism. Just because physicalism is true, does not mean determinism is. You are assuming a particular kind of causality is necessary to a physicalist account of the universe, and it isn't.

My thesis is about morality, which is (I take it) the way persons ought to be or act. All persons, not just the ones we know exist. I do not believe that you cannot think of entities that have not been thought about by the "great philosophers" for a moment. But, taking this to mean instead that we shouldn't bother with entities that haven't been conceived of by the "great philosophers", I think you are just wrong. I don't know how we would go about solving philosophical problems or making philosophical progress if we didn't think of things that haven't already been conceived of (although I don't think this is actually an example of this as it seems that plenty of people have considered persons who do not experience pain or pleasure before).

I agree that causality is not necessary to complete a physicalist account of the universe,(but I would'nt bet much on my belief's being true it is in fact a pro tem belief) and I'd also say that determinism is not necessary for the universe to exist, mainly based upon an entirely new idea I just got from Sanchez, and which I have not sufficiently thought about


Daniel, you wrote:
I do not believe that you cannot think of entities that have not been thought about by the "great philosophers"

but that's not what I said. What I said was , not entities, but ontological entities. Perhaps I'd have made myself clearer if I'd said ontological substances, and substances would certainly be more correct than 'entities'. However I had hoped that 'ontological' would give the clue to what I meant.

Certainly I do believe that philosohers can be creative. However I cannot see what ontological choices, i.e.what theories of existence, could remain besides:-

1. Cartesian or substance dualism

2. monisms

a)idealism (immatterialism)
b) physicalism (materialism)

3. Dual aspect monism

If you know of any other please tell. In all sincerity I say that the above are all the theories of existence I have ever heard of. My reading is not entirely up to date I confess. However if there were a new theory of existence it would have been headline news, a paradigm to put all other paradigms in the shade.

I do endorse metaphysical speculations, and indeed thought experiments. This includes that physical life forms other than our familiar carbon based one should be speculated about, and for all I know be material for experiments. People who don't experience pain or pleasure are commonly thought of as deficient in qualities that are necessary for them to live independently of help from others, and if the help is not forthcoming such unfortunate people tend to die sooner and sometimes, where the judiciary is unenlightened, in prison.

Subjective sensations of and comprehension of pain and pleasure together with their physical correlates are adaptations to environment. I can provide examples of pathological anaesthesia.

Consequently any alien life form would need some facility for maintaining its integrity otherwise it would be unable to separate itself from its environment, would become one with its environment and so would not exist as entity.

Besides the plain natural description of pain and pleasure, above, perhaps Pain and Pleasure are Platonic Forms . If you would like to talk about the ethical implications in Platonic Forms that would be a very interesting discussion.
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Re: A new normative theory and the demandingness objection

Post by Daniel McKay »

I wasn't suggesting that we need an alternative to physicalism. I consider myself a physicalist. When you said entities, I assumed you meant something like persons.

Again, this may be the case for humans given our brain structure, but that doesn't mean it isn't logically possible for a person (and by person I mean free rational agent, not just human) to have such characteristics.

Also, it seems entirely possible to have subjective experiences without pleasure and pain, as they seem to be two of a range of subjective experiences, and not necessarily required for the others to be present in a person.
Belinda
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Re: A new normative theory and the demandingness objection

Post by Belinda »

Daniel McKay wrote:
Also, it seems entirely possible to have subjective experiences without pleasure and pain, as they seem to be two of a range of subjective experiences, and not necessarily required for the others to be present in a person.
I agree that there are subjective experiences without pleasure or pain. Those would be insipid sensory experiences. If one met a person who was unable to experience pleasure or pain one would find them boring company. If they were able to parrot signs of pleasure or pain but not feel the sensations they would either be robots or insincere.

I understand that there are computer games with characters that can express pleasure and pain and that computer games are popular entertainments. However the characters in computer games lack the subjective aspects of their physical components so they cannot feel pleasure or pain even although they can display the physical signs of pleasure and pain.

In view of those artefacts, those computer games characters, what would occasion them to become
subjects of experience would be the ability to interact with their environments to the extent of experiencing empathy, pleasure, and pain. I cannot think of any living form that could exist independently of subjective experiences, even the most humble creatures, even bacteria, will avoid hostile environments and seek life- enhancing ones.
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Daniel McKay
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Re: A new normative theory and the demandingness objection

Post by Daniel McKay »

I wasn't suggesting persons that had no subjective experience but acted as though they did. I am not advocating zombies here. It seems perfectly sensible that someone can experience all sorts of other qualia without having the ability to experience pleasure or pain. The example of robots is an interesting one in that it brings to mind the idea of persons designed by other persons, which could well be designed without pleasure or pain but with subjective experience and preference sets (to clarify, I do not mean that doing so is practical, only that it is logically possible).
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Mgrinder
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Re: A new normative theory and the demandingness objection

Post by Mgrinder »

Have you wrote your thesis up? Will you share it?
Daniel McKay
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Re: A new normative theory and the demandingness objection

Post by Daniel McKay »

I have written quite a bit of it, but some of it is in very rough draft form. I could share/send some of it that isn't quite so rough though.
Belinda
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Re: A new normative theory and the demandingness objection

Post by Belinda »

Daniel MacKay wrote:
I wasn't suggesting persons that had no subjective experience but acted as though they did. I am not advocating zombies here. It seems perfectly sensible that someone can experience all sorts of other qualia without having the ability to experience pleasure or pain.
I am thinking that the question that bothers me is whether or not someone who cannot experience pleasure and pain can be a subject of experience. This is why I mentioned robots. Presumably robots are affected by colours, sizes, temperatures, and many other parameters. If those parameters are not evaluated by comparison with perceptions of pleasure and pain,(that's to say moral and aesthetic sense) could those parameters be qualia?
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Daniel McKay
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Re: A new normative theory and the demandingness objection

Post by Daniel McKay »

I wouldn't describe pleasure and pain as any kind of moral sense. But leaving that to one side; yes, if the person is experiencing them, rather than just reacting to them, then they are experiencing them.

I think there is a big problem with trying to externally evaluate whether people are actually conscious or just some kind of philosophical zombie.
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