Free will

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Free will

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Thinking critical wrote: July 19th, 2018, 6:49 am
ThomasHobbes wrote: July 18th, 2018, 10:42 am "emotions, reasoning and cognitive errors e.c.t.."
- None of these things do, or can exist without neural MATTER. The mind is what the neural matter does.
Please try to use your mind without a brain and see how far you get.
You clearly don't grasp the nature of the properties of brain matter. There is no functionality within the brain of a dead person. Brain matter still exists, however if neuro activity ceases to function the mind will not emerge and neither will cognitive experiences.
I am not rejecting the correlation between the physical brain and it's function, conscious thought is clearly contingent on the neuro processing of brain matter.
What you are neglecting to consider is the WHY, why do synapses interact between neurons down specific pathways in the patterns that they do? This after all is why the individual percieves their own unique subjective reality, it is not because their brains are physically different, it's because their neurons fire differently.

If conscious expressions such as emotions and reason were determined purely from the physical states of conscious matter as you insist, the consequences would deem all areas of human psychology redundant. There is substantial evidence to prove that experiences such as trauma, will alter mental states. The faculties of the mind can be altered mentally through learning and experience resulting in new neurological pathways or neuro networking (expanding the mind) this being the relationship between the mind and the brain I was speaking of.
Gibberish.
A brain is dead because its function depends on food and oxygen.
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Thinking critical
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Re: Free will

Post by Thinking critical »

ThomasHobbes wrote: July 20th, 2018, 1:59 pm Gibberish.
A brain is dead because its function depends on food and oxygen.
As I suspected, the nature of the argument you are attempting to make is beyond the scope of your intellectual capacity. If you don't understand how the brain functions that's fine, However based on that assessment you are simply arguing from ignorance.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Free will

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Thinking critical wrote: July 20th, 2018, 7:39 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote: July 20th, 2018, 1:59 pm Gibberish.
A brain is dead because its function depends on food and oxygen.
As I suspected, the nature of the argument you are attempting to make is beyond the scope of your intellectual capacity. If you don't understand how the brain functions that's fine, However based on that assessment you are simply arguing from ignorance.
Sorry obviously I am incapable of believing in the magical force that choses to animate dead matter. I bow down to your mysticism. Please do not place a hex on me.
PS. Do you need any dried frogs for your spells - I have some for sale at a bargain price.
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Thinking critical
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Re: Free will

Post by Thinking critical »

ThomasHobbes wrote: July 21st, 2018, 5:05 pm
Thinking critical wrote: July 20th, 2018, 7:39 pm

As I suspected, the nature of the argument you are attempting to make is beyond the scope of your intellectual capacity. If you don't understand how the brain functions that's fine, However based on that assessment you are simply arguing from ignorance.
Sorry obviously I am incapable of believing in the magical force that choses to animate dead matter. I bow down to your mysticism. Please do not place a hex on me.
PS. Do you need any dried frogs for your spells - I have some for sale at a bargain price.
By magical force I suspect you're referring to neurology. I guess it would seem like magic to someone who didn't understand it, much like how a creationist views evolution I suppose.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Free will

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Thinking critical wrote: July 21st, 2018, 5:36 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote: July 21st, 2018, 5:05 pm

Sorry obviously I am incapable of believing in the magical force that choses to animate dead matter. I bow down to your mysticism. Please do not place a hex on me.
PS. Do you need any dried frogs for your spells - I have some for sale at a bargain price.
By magical force I suspect you're referring to neurology. I guess it would seem like magic to someone who didn't understand it, much like how a creationist views evolution I suppose.
Run along, now!
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SimpleGuy
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Re: Free will

Post by SimpleGuy »

Free will is simply non existent due to the existence of sexual hormones and the presence of a beautiful woman.
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SimpleGuy
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Re: Free will

Post by SimpleGuy »

For example if intercourse is somehow harmful to your working habit.
tommarcus
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Re: Free will

Post by tommarcus »

Determinism is a problem for free will. We are physical, three dimensional beings subject to the rules of cause and effect. That is, if every physical event, even down to our very atoms, is a function of the cause and effect of another physical event, then there can be no free will. In theory, every future action by any living or non-living thing can be calculated and predicted. The more we learn about our brain, which is the source of our thinking, the more we learn how our thoughts are influenced and controlled by chemistry, giving further credence to the idea that we are not really in control of ourselves. We just believe that we are.

However there is an important requirement that must exist for determinism to be valid. In order for events in any system to be determined, calcuable and predictable, that system or world must be a closed system. That is, there must be no outside influence in anyway from outside that system. The reason is, if there is a force affecting the system which is outside that system, then the events in that system cannot be determined. You can't predict or know the outside force.

Now if our three dimensional world of cause and effect is the totality of existence and there is absolutely nothing else, then every action or event is a function of material forces and there is no room for a free will to act against them. However this is a big assumption. Not only that, is a very weak one.

This assumption implies that there are no other dimensions in existence but the three material dimensions. Mathematicians already are very confident that there are multiple dimensions. But, it is not clear if these are just additional aspects of a cause and effect material world.

More evidential is something else. And that is our self awareness. Psychologists and scientists are knocking themselves out trying to find out what part of the brain creates our self-awareness. They won't find it. Our brains, or any animal brain or nature itself cannot make this any more than we could program a robot to have identity. And while all life no matter how simple seems to have It, life could function very well without self-awareness. We could all have been sophisticated robots. It is something totally beyond three dimensions.It is evidence that another type of dimension exists.We can see it, but we don't create it, just like our eyes can see the world, but don't create it.

There is no doubt that our self-awareness also affects our actions just like the chemical processes in our body do. They are not mutually exclusive. But now the physical chemical processes of this world cannot be determinative because of the outside affects of another dimension of our existence as seen and felt by our own self-awareness.
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SimpleGuy
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Re: Free will

Post by SimpleGuy »

Well the brain itself is a system of neurons. Once putten in somekind of stochastic coherent state outer influence could be possible. The best example is, hypnosis and hypnotic chemical compounds. Since the invention of natriumpentathole , whatever the effect may be, which is called a truth drug , there are many ways to influence the human brain. A high dosage of dimethylenetriptamine for example could lead to effects that put free will out of order. So the question is, it this switch off available on a normal psychological scale.
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JamesOfSeattle
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Re: Free will

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

tommarcus wrote: July 29th, 2018, 10:41 amThat is, if every physical event, even down to our very atoms, is a function of the cause and effect of another physical event, then there can be no free will.
That depends on what you mean by free will. See below.
In theory, every future action by any living or non-living thing can be calculated and predicted.
The key here is “in theory”. It has been shown (Wolfram, A New Kind of Science, using cellular automata) that there are some chaotic systems that are completely determined. Once you set the rules and starting conditions, the results at every step are determined. Nevertheless, for some of these systems, there is no shortcut way to predict what the system will look like after x number of steps other than simply letting the system run to that point. Any attempt to calculate the outcome at x would require more resources than simply letting the system run. That means, assuming our universe is a similar kind of chaotic system, that future events could, “in theory”, be predicted, but such prediction would require more resources than exist in the universe.
However there is an important requirement that must exist for determinism to be valid. In order for events in any system to be determined, calcuable and predictable, that system or world must be a closed system. That is, there must be no outside influence in anyway from outside that system. ... Now if our three dimensional world of cause and effect is the totality of existence and there is absolutely nothing else, then every action or event is a function of material forces and there is no room for a free will to act against them.
This is a good observation. Compatibilism is the view that what we call free will is compatible with this physical view. The catch is that when we say a person has free will, we are considering the person to be a closed system, i.e., not determined by external causes. Influenced, possibly, but not determined. Outside influence which would determine a person’s decision, such as torture, is called “undue influence”. Even without undue influence, a person’s actions could be predicted, except for that whole “enough resources in the universe” thing.
Psychologists and scientists are knocking themselves out trying to find out what part of the brain creates our self-awareness. They won't find it.
This is a pretty bold prediction. To you have reasons to support this?
Our brains, or any animal brain or nature itself cannot make this any more than we could program a robot to have identity.
Who says we can’t program a robot to have identity. Reasons?
And while all life no matter how simple seems to have It, life could function very well without self-awareness.
You say simple life has self awareness but could function without it. Can you explain how bacteria has self awareness in such a way that it could function without it?

*
tommarcus
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Re: Free will

Post by tommarcus »

By free will I mean the ability to make decisions independently of the three dimensional processes and events of my environment and my body which themselves are subject to the physical laws of cause and effect.

I say that these processes could be done in theory because the actual calculations would be beyond our knowledge and capability. Note, that chaos and randomness do not create free will. If I hooked my body to a random numbers generator and acted subject to its outcomes, I would not have free will. I would now be subject and controlled to these outcomes. So if the physical lawsnof our universe were sometimes chaotic, that doesn't free me from its power.

Neuroscientists are making great progress on mapping the brain, that is, associating our thought processes to that portion of the brain which controls them. Consciousness and self awareness is just one part of their quest.

Robots cannot be given consciousness. What would be the instructions? Be aware of yourself? Could you do that to a rock? We can't give something to a robot unless we have control over it. We have no control over something which is totally different from the material world. Not only that, self awareness seems to be independent of brain size. It appears to us, (actually this can be proved through inductive reasoning) that all life even the simplest has self-awareness. So this very unique characteristic is beyond our normal three dimensional processes.

Further, robots could never have free will. Tell a robot to do something for which It is not programmed to do in some way. This an impossible task for a robot.

While a physical living body is a necessary requirement for self-awareness, it does not follow that it is the creator of self-awareness.What seems clear, is that it is not enough.
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SimpleGuy
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Re: Free will

Post by SimpleGuy »

The problem is just by mapping the brain you cannot really understand how it works. If there are instablities or oscillations caused by quantum effects in the brain the problem is , the mapping can just measure and depict the effect but not predict ( after the measurement axiom of quantum mechanics). Now some people would claim this is a macroscopic thing to observe ( the brain). The problem is that neurons have a lower excitation energy if they are coupled to some stochastic process which doesn't provide the excitation energy. This is an article of Klaus Obermayer and one of his assistant professor claiming that a simulated stochastic process although too weak to incite spiking or neural activation can lower the activation potential. And this is definitely a quantum mechanical based effect of high value.
tommarcus
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Re: Free will

Post by tommarcus »

I agree with you that mapping the brain alone cannot tell us how it works. The question that I am trying to answer is how can a physical three dimension object such as our brains create something which is way beyond just another physical attribute? It makes nature's ability to make dinosaurs sprout wings look easy.

Quantum mechanics, neurological activity and electrical impulses are all part of our physical world. The existence of self-awareness is something totally beyond a typical three dimensional object. To say that it is something that we create is to say we have no idea where it comes from.

Our self awareness is not even linearly related to the size of our brains. Like life, either you have It or don't, even if you are an amoeba. It may very well be independent of time and cause and effect. This then is what holds the promise of freeing us from determinism.
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Halc
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Re: Free will

Post by Halc »

tommarcus wrote: July 29th, 2018, 10:41 amPsychologists and scientists are knocking themselves out trying to find out what part of the brain creates our self-awareness. They won't find it.
Maybe psychology doesn't really deal with locating where certain functions are performed, so I don't think you can back this claim that they're knocking themselves out over this. They could perhaps ask somebody whose job it is to discover such things, like the neuroscientists who have located various portions that create self awareness.
The self is the most primitive, and is one of the functions of the midbrain, part of the brain stem. The 'awareness' part is more a function of the thalamus (part of the limbic system), and is what rests while sleeping, while the midbrain continues to control 'the self'. Not sure if creatures without a limbic system can truly sleep, or if all creatures that have one need to sleep. The prefrontal cortex is more where introspection goes on, something of which only mammals are capable, and being more developed in humans than in say a rabbit.

All three functions (and more) are combined to create the experience of self awareness that is the only reference we know.
tommarcus
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Re: Free will

Post by tommarcus »

I think you are more correct that the physical location of the brain's ability to see is the subject of neurology than psychology. And in order for us to have a physical sensation of this there must be a physical capability. But what exactly are we sensing? Like our eyes, they are physical three dimensional objects which are perceiving the three dimensional world but they are not creating that world.

I make a distinction between being conscious and having self-awareness. The former is being awake, the latter is my awareness that I exist. I maintain that the brain controls the former but is incapable of creating the latter. In addition, my self-awareness and the existence that it communicates to me are independent of brain development since appears that all life may have It.

Therefore, this is another piece of evidence that my existence itself exists beyond our physical world of cause and effect. If this is true, then my actions cannot be determined solely by the physical world since they are also influenced by my no physical existence and my self-awareness.
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