Thinking critical wrote: ↑July 3rd, 2018, 8:32 amNope, read the post I was replying to, it was Present awareness' dichotomy to which I was pointing out the flaws. I have not stated that free will does not exist, I'm just not convinced that our will is as free as some believe it to be.
What is it exactly that you believe I have assumed and don't believe?
Clearly I thought you deny free will by taking your comment out of the broader context, not reading the entire chain of comments.
Thinking critical wrote: ↑July 3rd, 2018, 8:32 am
chewybrian wrote: ↑July 2nd, 2018, 10:06 amIsn't the right answer is to at least withhold judgment; if we don't know, we don't know, right?
Correct, but I am making an opinion, not a judgement.
So, maybe we are in some agreement.
Thinking critical wrote: ↑July 3rd, 2018, 8:32 amThis subject appears to be some what sesitive to you?
The question, to me, is how could anyone who thinks they have a free will not find it a sensitive subject? The assertion is that I never have and never will control my own destiny in the slightest. I am being told I am nothing but a complex tree, bending to the light or reaching for the water in interesting but involuntary ways. Why should I not be repelled by the notion?
Thinking critical wrote: ↑July 3rd, 2018, 8:32 amDo you have a choice in your emotional response to this? My point is, humans like to think we are rational and logical thinking beings, when in reality we act/react emotionally and then use reason to justify our actions.
We respond to environmental pressures, adapt to social constructs, behave differently in different situations, develop habits, submit to cravings and desires and most of these human traits I have mentioned are automated responses to our daily lives, we use patterns and algorithms based on previous experirnces to navigate day to day with out very little thought.
Then all of a sudden we are put in a position where choices and options become available which consciously give us the ability to change or choose a potential future outcome and I'm suppose to believe that this is clear evidence of free will?
What part of us is it that does the choosing? The mind is essentially the brain experiencing a form of neuro processing, so is it the brain,the part that stores information that's choosing or do you believe that the subjective persona which you refer to as I, is some sort of transcendent consciousness that operates independently from the brain that chooses?
Your problem is answered directly and fully by stoic philosophy. The focus is to understand what is inside and outside your control, and apply your efforts where they can make a difference, which is in your desires and aversions, attitude and interpretation of events. The goal is to break those habits and create new ones. I can demonstrate the process toward the emotion and habit of anger.
I was always quick to anger, and inherited this tendency, perhaps genetically, but certainly by example from my father. I would perceive an injustice by looking only at my view of an event, like being cut off in traffic. From this perspective, I could 'know' with certainty I was right and they were wrong. The adrenaline would flow, and I would yell or give a 'hand signal'.
I had to work to improve in small steps. First, I would simply ignore the offender, even though the anger was still flowing on the inside. It would take a long time to return to normal, but even this was progress. Then, I tried to remember each time that the other person had a different view, and might have thought they were right, or not realized what they did. I was still angry initially, but it didn't last too long. Then, I reminded myself that such events were outside my control, and as such were not worth wasting emotional energy upon, and the anger diminished further. Finally, I was able to view the events from a larger world view. I could see right off that this event would not matter in a year, or even a day, or even an hour, and apply that feeling sooner rather than later. I began to view these incidents as gifts, almost, in that they gave me a chance to practice my reaction. I never reached perfection and presumably never will, but I've made progress.
I don't know how or if the mind is something separate from the brain, or where the will lies. But, I experience the will and see no reason to doubt it. My experience of the usefulness of philosophy is mostly as described, as a tool for self-improvement. Clearly others have a more scientific focus, but perhaps they should heed the warning of Epictetus about the hierarchy of understanding.
He warned that it was necessary first to establish correct desires and aversions. In this way, we can break old patterns of behavior and perspectives and create new ones. Second, we must learn to apply these properly to choices and rejections. We have to understand the duties implied by our various relationships with others and act according to them, for example.
Only when these two aspects are firmly in our control should we venture into the third aspect, which is the avoidance of errors and proper understanding of the world, including epistemology and such concerns. He cautioned that most of us were eager to jump to the third aspect without the foundation of the first two, and that it was dangerous to do so. Perhaps he might agree that accepting a lack of free will in the pursuit of science, without proof, is a great example of how things can go wrong in this way.
I know I feel this way. I think it is a foolish and dangerous notion, and see little reason to view it as true. I even go so far as to say that I doubt the complete truthfulness of those that say they doubt free will, as I know they must at least experience the perception of acting on their own will. I feel their view is gaining steam, and I am rather shocked both that some people say they accept that view, and that others do not share my dismay at the idea, even as they share my view that free will exists.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."