The dog or the child?

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Eduk
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Re: The dog or the child?

Post by Eduk »

I agree I wouldn't compell someone to risk their life to save my child. Although obviously I'd be grateful beyond words if they did. But that wasn't the question. The question was would you save the dog or the child. I am assuming both carry the same risk to life. I also assume you don't have children if you think it reasonable for someone to save a dog over a child. Even if you change the original scenario to a terminally ill child with exactly one day left to live against a fit and healthy young dog. It would still be madness to save the dog. One extra day with my child would be beyond cost to me, certainly worth more than a dog. Even if the dog were my dog.
A firefighter has a duty to maximise life so if they were unwilling to enter a building with training and gear they would certainly stop anyone else. However if it was your own child and not a random one then maximising life is not under consideration. Even ignoring heat of the moment recklessness there are situations where you would happily die to give your child a 1 percent chance of life. I wouldn't do this for a dog.
Also of course this is biased. I'm heavily biased towards my own mental well-being. It is possible to over intellectualise and fight your nature. But your nature is a pretty tough thing to fight.
Alias
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Re: The dog or the child?

Post by Alias »

Good: you have your priorities. This is what you would do.
I have no objection to that. What I object to is characterizing any other person's decision as murder.
Eduk
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Re: The dog or the child?

Post by Eduk »

Well if you ever get the chance to give it a go in real life I very much doubt I would be in the minority. But if you ignore human emotion and try to be as objective as possible then you run into the happy pig problem. Who is more happy, a happy pig (or dog) or an unhappy human. I would argue the unhappy human is happier due to the difference in depth of feeling. So even if you see a human and a dog as two biological machines I think you can still make the argument of a human life of one day being objectively worth more than a dog's whole life.
Out of interest. Do you feel you could be anthropomorphizing the dog? What do you imagine the dog will do with it's saved life? I can imagine a lot of things a human can do in one day. Or is it the other way around less a case of dogs being close to humans and more that humans are close to dogs. I assume you don't like humans much? Possibly too depressed by people like trump? This is purely conjecture on my part I'm not trying to second guess you at all. Just curious as to what you think?
I of course could be putting too much emphasise on human life. It could be argued that we aren't all that special and can we actually prove we are better than dogs? Or even that anything is better than anything. Just a self replicating pattern with no more inherent value than a rock. Objectively that could well be true. Subjectively I'd say it is clear that most people value their lives, their relatives lives, their friends lives and humanity as a whole over animal life. We can agree on that I imagine? Now I would never say that just because most people believe something then they are right. But in this case they would be right about their feelings. The law as you say would likely reflect this. Whether that's reasonable or not is up for debate?
Unknown means unknown.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The dog or the child?

Post by Sy Borg »

LuckyR wrote:
Greta wrote:At that time our bodies are taken over by a mad animal who hopefully won't do anything too crazy or embarrassing "in our absence", so to speak. It's not much fun being expected to explain some bone-headed thing you've done while hostage to your automatic responses.
That has not been my experience. Adrenaline surges I have experienced caused extreme focus and the perception of time dilation such that I had extra time within the moment to consider my options. Interesting...
You are lucky, Lucky, to have such good instincts!

It appears we have provided two faces of possible responses to stressful situation, although this may be just a matter of degree - of finding enough stress to induce a panic state in you.
Fooloso4
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Re: The dog or the child?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Skydude,
How do you pick between the two choices and what Is your reasoning behind your choice?
Would anyone really choose the dog over a human? Does anyone really think that the life of a dog greater value?

I do not think that saving the life of a human being over that of a dog requires justification but choosing the dog over the person does.

I think the question gets at the point that moral choices are not fundamentally rational choices. We do not choose the life of a human being over that of a dog because it is the rational or logical choice, but because it is the human choice.
Nick_A
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Re: The dog or the child?

Post by Nick_A »

If it were a choice between saving a puppy or a fetus, many would choose the puppy and just kill the fetus. It is a question of value. What gives a puppy or a fetus value? When it has value for you, that is what you save.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Eduk
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Re: The dog or the child?

Post by Eduk »

Again I don't think many would choose the puppy!
Unknown means unknown.
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Mark1955
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Re: The dog or the child?

Post by Mark1955 »

Alias wrote:
Eduk wrote:I don't see how the two compare. A dog is not a human. Allowing a child to die to save a dog could probably be classed as murder.
By whom? The people who stood by and made no attempt to save him?
Yes, in my experience they're usually the judgmental ones. Do nothing, but always have an opinion on how it should be done, particularly if you can enforce that opinion with the benefit of hindsight.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
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Re: The dog or the child?

Post by Eduk »

Hmm this is rather straying away from the original premise. Who said anything about people standing around doing nothing. Also in this scenario we have perfect information beforehand. We have two known 100 percent options. This is a thought experiment not real life. You could replace the fire with two buttons. Button a kills the child button b kills the dog. And you have to press one. No fire. No risk of death. No onlookers. The end result is identical but maybe has less variables to worry the mind.

-- Updated January 1st, 2017, 5:34 am to add the following --

Hmm this is rather straying away from the original premise. Who said anything about people standing around doing nothing. Also in this scenario we have perfect information beforehand. We have two known 100 percent options. This is a thought experiment not real life. You could replace the fire with two buttons. Button a kills the child button b kills the dog. And you have to press one. No fire. No risk of death. No onlookers. The end result is identical but maybe has less variables to worry the mind.
Unknown means unknown.
Alias
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Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: The dog or the child?

Post by Alias »

Is there any known limit to human hypocrisy?
Those buttons have existed for over half a century and been pressed a million times, knowingly aimed at children and everything else, with hardly a ripple of dissent in the general populations that finance, staff and support the mass killings.
What difference does one child or one dog make in the carnage?

-- Updated January 1st, 2017, 11:02 am to add the following --

Not that men behind cannon or riot police on horseback were risking very much when they barraged a town or charged a protest rally, but the killings grow more numerous, efficient and remote all the time.

-- Updated January 1st, 2017, 12:14 pm to add the following --

Okay, now let's up the ante to something meaningful.
A. The last two wild mountain gorillas, plus 983 children with various cancers and no health insurance,
vs
B. the next quarterly profits from a cell-phone manufacturer that employs 1108 offshore and 38 on US soil.
and
You don't even need to lift a finger - just refrain from an unnecessary purchase.
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