Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

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Scruffy Nerf Herder
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Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Scruffy Nerf Herder »

As an opener for the thread I'll be presenting my own argument in favor of a particular understanding of human rights. So, without further ado, I give you my argument from the perception of novelty:

People require rights, or some other commensurate form of mutual consideration, because they have novel experiences. Their potential to perceive and feel is worthy of our acknowledgement and respect totally regardless of evolution and society. The mere fact of a being with this kind of capacity to think and feel experiencing infringements upon his/her rights is objectionable, because the experiences of said being are an end unto itself.

My qualification for the last statement? The philosophers of the Enlightenment specifically used verbiage like "inalienable" because no matter the rationalizations we entertain when usurping someone's rights, we are utterly beholden to delusions if we mentally alienate people to the point that we can't recognize them as thinking, feeling beings. We are naturally bound by the engrossing novelty of our perceptions to value our own existence beyond merely living and propagating the species, and we can know that other people are also inherently the same in this respect.

Other people matter because it is in our nature to know that we matter, and they are of a kind with us.
A Poster He or I
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by A Poster He or I »

People require rights, or some other commensurate form of mutual consideration, because they have novel experiences. Their potential to perceive and feel is worthy of our acknowledgement and respect totally regardless of evolution and society.
Does this imply I must honor Hitler's "right" to exterminate Jews out of mutual consideration for everyone's rights? Hitler certainly had novel experiences, after all.
The mere fact of a being with this kind of capacity to think and feel experiencing infringements upon his/her rights is objectionable, because the experiences of said being are an end unto itself.
So the experience of a pedophile's bliss upon raping a child is laudable, being an end unto itself?
...no matter the rationalizations we entertain when usurping someone's rights, we are utterly beholden to delusions if we mentally alienate people to the point that we can't recognize them as thinking, feeling beings.
ISIS commandos feel mentally alienated from the West's secular values which consider them unthinking, unfeeling fanatics. So I shouldn't try to usurp their right to establish Sharia law by force where secular law now rules, am I correct?
Other people matter because it is in our nature to know that we matter, and they are of a kind with us.
So a refugee from Syria who didn't want to live under Sharia law is supposed to uphold the rights of the ISIS invaders who burned down his home?
Alias
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Alias »

Nah! The idea of rights is just something societies come up with to keep order. The particular rights and privileges vary greatly from one ear to another, one culture to another, one nation to another. Nothing universal about is, and nothing peculiarly human, either, since other social species have come up with the same idea independently.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Gertie
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Gertie »

People require rights, or some other commensurate form of mutual consideration, because they have novel experiences. Their potential to perceive and feel is worthy of our acknowledgement and respect totally regardless of evolution and society. The mere fact of a being with this kind of capacity to think and feel experiencing infringements upon his/her rights is objectionable, because the experiences of said being are an end unto itself.
I pretty much agree with the gist of this, tho I'd put it a little differently. Something like -

People should be shown moral consideration because of the qualiative nature of consciousness, which means we can enjoy a quality of life (be happy, suffer, etc, and if we lose our life we lose something of inherent value).

Human Rights is one framework for showing each other moral consideration. Something like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a useful way of outlining and mandating/encouraging a basic benchmark of shared moral considerations. Then there are equality based rights, which are rooted in our sense of fairness, and afford people the dignity of demanding what's fair, rather than relying on the goodwill of those in a position to grant or deny equal treatment (the tyranny of the majority for example). Human Rights play a valuable role in societies in these ways.
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Bryntyrch2016
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Bryntyrch2016 »

I don't see how you can have a right if it doesn't create a duty. If so the question is what can compel me to have a duty to a 'rights holder'?
The only answer, I think, is the Golden Rule - do as you would be done to - I accept a duty to allow you to do things that p+++ me off because I want you to allow me the same.
It follows that YOU must want the right, and can let me know it: I cant have a duty to guess what rights you want (so foetuses babies and animals have no rights). For societies to advert to commonly wanted rights (eg no one wants to be tortured ) in the form of rules or proclamations makes it more likely I will correctly identify my duty.
Surreptitious57
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Surreptitious57 »

Everyone has human rights by mere virtue of being human. So logically no ones rights should compromise or invalidate anyone
elses. Human rights are not like other rights which may only apply to a specific demographic. And so not be universal. They are
automatically accorded from the point of birth regardless of anything else. Unfortunately however they are not always observed
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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SimpleGuy
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by SimpleGuy »

At least officially you can download the european human rights convention under http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf , in brussels one could at least processes for staying with the human rights convention. If this exists in reality for all points is a different question, it's an abstract claim that can be believed in like some others believe in the bible or not. It's at least from a metaphisical standpoint worth to mention. The catechism of the roman catholic church is fessing up for this convention.

-- Updated October 22nd, 2017, 12:52 pm to add the following --

At least from the absolute standpoint even in all countries there are at least sometimes differences between law and realtiy.
Alias
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Alias »

SimpleGuy wrote:At least officially you can download the european human rights convention under http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf , in brussels one could at least processes for staying with the human rights convention.
It says the EU (for whatever its life-span should turn out to be) adopts the universal declaration issued by the UN. I think it's a good constitution and should be adopted by all nations, but we must be aware that it applies only to the signatories. I didn't check who signed on. All the same, it's not a thing that exists in any palpable form; it's document - an agreement, a treaty - very fragile.
Belindi
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Belindi »

Does the question refer to natural human rights, or to man-made human rights, or to God-given human rights?

There are no natural rights, and the God-authority does not exist. Man-made human rights have to be guarded very carefully against depredation by sociopaths.
Alias
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Alias »

Man-made human rights - the only kind that can possibly be applied to humans - are made by different men for different men in different times and places. Through much of human history, they didn't apply to women, children, other nationalities, or any people captured or conquered in wars. It didn't apply to slaves - captured, hereditary, sentenced for a criminal offense or indebted - and only partially to serf, servant and underclasses of any kind. There were different rights for each stratum of wealth, aristocracy, profession and whatever status the society had.
It's a malleable concept; it's a legal concept: rights can be conferred and denied, won and lost, expanded and contracted, legislated and repealed.
As whole lot of Americans are learning, there is nothing absolute, inalienable or universal about it.
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SimpleGuy
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by SimpleGuy »

Alias wrote:
SimpleGuy wrote:At least officially you can download the european human rights convention under http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf , in brussels one could at least processes for staying with the human rights convention.
It says the EU (for whatever its life-span should turn out to be) adopts the universal declaration issued by the UN. I think it's a good constitution and should be adopted by all nations, but we must be aware that it applies only to the signatories. I didn't check who signed on. All the same, it's not a thing that exists in any palpable form; it's document - an agreement, a treaty - very fragile.
Yes it is , but that's why i mentioned it as a more or less metaphysical question. Laws don't really do exist, they can get called for somebody or something. They are idealistic.

-- Updated October 23rd, 2017, 7:10 am to add the following --
SimpleGuy wrote:
Alias wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

It says the EU (for whatever its life-span should turn out to be) adopts the universal declaration issued by the UN. I think it's a good constitution and should be adopted by all nations, but we must be aware that it applies only to the signatories. I didn't check who signed on. All the same, it's not a thing that exists in any palpable form; it's document - an agreement, a treaty - very fragile.
Yes it is , but that's why i mentioned it as a more or less metaphysical question. Laws don't really do exist, they can get called for somebody or something. They are idealistic.
Even the socialistic international anthem wants to fight for human rights as well as the catechism of the roman catholic church is of this position. It's embedded in the formulation of the german constitutional law (Grundgesetz). 8)

-- Updated October 23rd, 2017, 7:22 am to add the following --

Just think about article 3 of the eu-human rights convention:

No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading
treatment or punishment.

This shall be a guiding line for religion as well as democracy.
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Alias »

No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading
treatment or punishment.
I can guess which nations didn't sign.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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SimpleGuy
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by SimpleGuy »

At least this is just metaphysical and equivalent to believe in sth. which nobody needs to and even i don't feel obliged for it.
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Alias »

SimpleGuy wrote:At least this is just metaphysical and equivalent to believe in sth. which nobody needs to and even i don't feel obliged for it.
All the same, it's the best statement of principle I've read so far.
Beats the US constitutions all hollow - and they've been bragging on that unenforced, multi-patched, disrespected document for centuries.
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Belindi »

The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Preamble
Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.

(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
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