A way to avoid being raped?

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Empiricist-Bruno
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A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

A man approaches a woman and tells her he will rape her. She answers that he can rape her if he gives her $20. He pulls the $20 from his pocket, shoves it in her hand and then proceeds to raping her, or to raping her with her consent as she takes the money.

Is this then not rape because she took money and therefore this is prostitution. And the customer isn't a rapist but a John? In this case, the woman avoided rape by fooling the guy into thinking he could rape her when he wasn't?

Or is the fact that she agreed that he rape her makes the guy a rapist because no one can agree to be raped because when you agree it is called love. And so the woman's demand for cash does not change the nature of the act, a rape, because she specifically mentioned that the money was for him to be allowed to rape her and not to love her.

I'm trying to address the problem of guys who want to have sex and don't mind how it is produced as long as it does occur. Is that the state of mind of a rapist, a conqueror or a John?

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Fooloso4 »

The title is misleading. There is nothing here about how to avoid rape. One obvious way to avoid it in the scenario you present is castration if he is unable to control himself.

Empiricist-Bruno:
I'm trying to address the problem of guys who want to have sex and don't mind how it is produced as long as it does occur. Is that the state of mind of a rapist, a conqueror or a John?
It depends on what he has to do and how far he is willing to go to. If she freely and willingly consents it is not rape. The problem is that the exchange of money and/or compliance is not in itself consenting freely. If she is being coerced by a pimp then she is not freely consenting. If she is in financial need and feels she has no other option she is not freely consenting. If it is a free exchange of money for a service then both benefit and it is not rape.
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Burning ghost
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Burning ghost »

Rape is rape. To role play rape is to roleplay rape.

If a guy would do anything to have sex that wouls obviously include rape.

What are you talking about?
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Surreptitious57
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Surreptitious57 »

The money is not the issue but consent and whether or not it was freely given. As the woman herself referred to it as rape
then one can say that it was not freely given. One cannot give consent to such an act as it is defined as one devoid of any
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Burning ghost »

In light of the title of the thread as a technique to disarm the would be rapist it may be useful if the woman acts dominantly and takes control away from the offender. I am guessing that rapist psychology invloves a perverse pleasure in controlling the woman not reaching a mutual agreement.

As a ploy it may work very well on some rapists, but I doubt it would work on all? I am not a criminal psychologist!
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Gertie »

The way to avoid being raped is not to be in a situation where the potential rapist thinks they can get away with it.

Unfortunately you are most likely to be raped in your own home by someone you know and trust. And currently nearly all rapists get away with it, it's a good bet.

So the answer seems to lie in making reporting and prosecution much much more effective. There are sensible ways to go about this, offering $20 isn't one of them.
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Fooloso4 wrote:The title is misleading. There is nothing here about how to avoid rape.
I think there is. If a woman decides that what has been done to her wasn't rape, she has avoided it hasn't she? And how is she going to be able to make this decision if the whole event was entirely negative? Getting a 20$ out of it may help her make the decision that it wasn't rape and therefore she avoided being raped. I know, this is borderline insane or insane. But that was the point of the subject title.

Fooloso4 wrote:One obvious way to avoid it in the scenario you present is castration if he is unable to control himself.
Good idea!
***********************
Empiricist-Bruno:
I'm trying to address the problem of guys who want to have sex and don't mind how it is produced as long as it does occur. Is that the state of mind of a rapist, a conqueror or a John?
Fooloso4 wrote:It depends on what he has to do and how far he is willing to go to. If she freely and willingly consents it is not rape. The problem is that the exchange of money and/or compliance is not in itself consenting freely. If she is being coerced by a pimp then she is not freely consenting. If she is in financial need and feels she has no other option she is not freely consenting. If it is a free exchange of money for a service then both benefit and it is not rape.
Are you suggesting that Johns who visit prostitutes that are abused and held by a pimp are actually raping the woman despite the fact that he thinks he's just a John? I have heard of a woman who once agreed to have sex with an ex husband when he came to his house for another reason and she then complained to the police and he was charged and convicted of rape because the judge felt that the ex should have known that he was not wanted by her and that she was agreeing just not to get into a fight or argument.

So, similarly, any john would be at risk of being considered rapist if he had a sex deal with an abused woman in your opinion? Or because the johns have no reason to believe that the deal isn't forced, they are not rapists? Or it is a two party rape, the pimp and the john together, even if they may not even know of one another? How interesting.
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Empiricist-Bruno:
If a woman decides that what has been done to her wasn't rape, she has avoided it hasn't she?
If you are referring to your initial example, the woman has not agreed and so it is rape. She has a choice - either get raped or get raped and get $20 in return. Giving her the money changes nothing because she is not give the choice not to be raped. Any other case would have to be decided based on the specifics of that case.
Getting a 20$ out of it may help her make the decision that it wasn't rape and therefore she avoided being raped.
She can think of it that way but if rape is defined in terms of consent then she was raped. She is a victim. My concern is with the thinking of the perpetrator.
Are you suggesting that Johns who visit prostitutes that are abused and held by a pimp are actually raping the woman despite the fact that he thinks he's just a John?
If the women are doing it against their will then yes. If they are not in a position to consent or decline then yes.
I have heard of a woman who once agreed to have sex with an ex husband when he came to his house for another reason and she then complained to the police and he was charged and convicted of rape because the judge felt that the ex should have known that he was not wanted by her and that she was agreeing just not to get into a fight or argument.
We do not know the specifics of the case. Fights or arguments can range from a minor or unpleasant disagreement to emotional and physical trauma.
So, similarly, any john would be at risk of being considered rapist if he had a sex deal with an abused woman in your opinion?
It is not a matter of being abused but of consent. If she is being abused to force her to prostitute herself then it becomes a question of how much he knows or can be reasonably expected to know.
Or because the johns have no reason to believe that the deal isn't forced, they are not rapists?
If he has no reason to believe that the deal isn't forced then he assumes that it is forces. It would be rape. If you meant he had no reason to believe it was forced then, in my opinion, it would not be rape. He acted on the assumption that she consented freely without coercion.
Or it is a two party rape, the pimp and the john together, even if they may not even know of one another?
The pimp is not guilty of rape but of sex slavery.

I do not see what any of this has to do with a way to avoid being raped.
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Burning ghost
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Burning ghost »

Empiricist -

So you are asking if a woman asks for money before being raped ... sorry I cannot finish the sentence. This is my third attempt.

This thread is merely a play on words in which the victim can lie to themselves by redefining reality.

If I shoot you with a gun just think of it as a happy bullet implant and skip of into the monnlight.
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Surreptitious57 wrote:The money is not the issue but consent and whether or not it was freely given. As the woman herself referred to it as rape
then one can say that it was not freely given. One cannot give consent to such an act as it is defined as one devoid of any
Good points Surreptitious57!

The woman may have thought that it wasn't rape because money was involved and since she may like getting the money, she may want to take advantage of any sex that brings her cash.

Going to the police won't bring her any money and may hurt her reputation with other johns, if she is a whore. (Not to mention that cops may not take her seriously if that is the case.) If she said that the money was for her rape, then it simply means that she goes along with what her john wants to experience in his fantasies. His fantasies may not be for real. He may not think that he is raping her but that he is simply doing what has to be done for sex to occur. What happens between two consenting adult is their business and if the woman says it was consensual, then who is anyone else really to object because they haven't themselves seen the action as consensual from the sidelines? Who has the right to tell a woman what is consensual and what is not? If a woman decides that no man can rape her because she agrees to all comers, then how can she be raped?

If she claims to agree to be raped for a certain amount of cash, it may not be because she does agree to it but simply because she wants the guy to think that he's doing what he wants to do. (She is with him!?) As you mention, you cannot agree to be raped and so to consent to one's rape for cash is an oxymoron and cannot really be taken seriously.

If no money were involved, then the scenario in the OP would most definitely look like rape to all and if the woman didn't agree that she was raped, we may question her sanity, (unless obviously if she welcomes all male comers all the time, in which case we can still question her sanity but for another reason). But if the money is there then it could have been something else. In the end, you have to ask her what it was, right? And she has to come up with an answer. One of her possible answers can indicate that she was not rapped; she has avoided what another woman would have seen as herself being rapped. So, my question has to do with knowing if this is a legitimate way for a woman to avoid being rapped: choosing a reality that apparently works better for herself and that does not present her as a victim.
Last edited by Empiricist-Bruno on December 7th, 2016, 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Burning ghost
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Burning ghost »

Er ... Am I in surrealist world here?

Ah! Maybe you are all lawyers!? That would explain a lot.
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Burning ghost:
Er ... Am I in surrealist world here?

Ah! Maybe you are all lawyers!? That would explain a lot.
Those who have responded have been in agreement with you. Surreptitious57 and I have emphasized that it is a matter of consent and that it is still rape if she does not freely and willingly agree even if money changes hands. If it is against her will it is rape. Gertie’s response had to do with preventing rape. So, Empiricist-Bruno is alone here. Frankly, I am as puzzled as you are. In his response to Surreptitious57 EB says S57 made good points but then go on to say things that are completely at odds with what Surreptitious57 actually said. I pointed out that the title is misleading and there is nothing here about how to avoid rape (#2), that she is a victim and that my concern is with the thinking of the perpetrator, that giving her the money changes nothing because she is not give the choice not to be raped, that I do not see what any of this has to do with a way to avoid being raped (#8)
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Burning ghost
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Burning ghost »

I am puzzled because Empiricist seems to be treating this as a grammatical problem.

I still don't see the point ... if there is one? Is it a bizarre way to show how being grammatically correct and precise with words can hinder ethical debate?
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Surreptitious57 »

Empiricist Bruno wrote:
Surreptitious57 wrote:
The money is not the issue but consent and whether or not it was freely given. As the woman herself referred to it as rape
then one can say that it was not freely given. One cannot give consent to such an act as it is defined as one devoid of any
The woman may have thought that it was not rape because money was involved and since she may like getting the money she
may want to take advantage of any sex that brings her cash
Regardless of whether money was involved or not the woman would know if it was rape as consent would not have been
given. But in order for her to not know that at all her cognitive functioning would have to be totally impaired at the time

I think that you are overcomplicating it with all of these scenarios. And so the bottom line is this : if the woman is not freely
giving her consent then it is rape. Everything else is superfluous to that one simple fact. And it is all that really matters here
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Re: A way to avoid being raped?

Post by Gertie »

Burning ghost wrote:Er ... Am I in surrealist world here?
You are not alone! :shock:
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