Purpose

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Nick_A
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Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Purpose

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote:
Eduk wrote:I agree with Ormond (for once :)). While up to this point I think you can make a reasonable claim that on the whole everything is 'better' (although clearly not linearly in subject, time or location) I see no reason to believe that this is inexorable. For example it's difficult to predict exactly how catastrophic global warming will be.

Having said that I'm generally optimistic that things will improve slowly, but this is an optimistic view not necessarily a realistic one. I at least act like they will :)
All I have done is note the improvement of human behaviours throughout history. So, for instance, nailing people to bits of wood is not acceptable today as it once was.

Still, in the long term I'm not optimistic for humanity at all - we are going extinct like all the rest. The Earth is clearly moving into a terminal reproductive state and, as with all reproduction, there are no guarantees. If humans fail to sustainably propagate parts of the Earth on other worlds (biology or autonomous self-developing technology) then we will have failed and the story of Earth will entirely end when the heating Sun sterilises the Earth's surface in less than a billion years.

So the big picture is not about humans themselves, nor their welfare. It is just our picture and important on our level, but there are much larger dynamics at play in which we are nothing more than human resources.
Some have said that fallen Man on earth living out of proportion is like a cancer. If this is true, is it advisable to spread this cancer which consumes resources on the body it inhabits well out of proportion onto other worlds it would consume and destroy?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Sy Borg
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Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Purpose

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote:
Greta wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


All I have done is note the improvement of human behaviours throughout history. So, for instance, nailing people to bits of wood is not acceptable today as it once was.

Still, in the long term I'm not optimistic for humanity at all - we are going extinct like all the rest. The Earth is clearly moving into a terminal reproductive state and, as with all reproduction, there are no guarantees. If humans fail to sustainably propagate parts of the Earth on other worlds (biology or autonomous self-developing technology) then we will have failed and the story of Earth will entirely end when the heating Sun sterilises the Earth's surface in less than a billion years.

So the big picture is not about humans themselves, nor their welfare. It is just our picture and important on our level, but there are much larger dynamics at play in which we are nothing more than human resources.
Some have said that fallen Man on earth living out of proportion is like a cancer. If this is true, is it advisable to spread this cancer which consumes resources on the body it inhabits well out of proportion onto other worlds it would consume and destroy?
The cancer analogy is popular. When cancers create order far more complex and sentient than their hosts I might agree. Until then, we can be sure that humans are neither parasites or cancers but part of the biosphere's function. The "cancer" and "parasite" analogies are simply based on emotion, ergo, understandable dismay with humanity's destructiveness. I share the dismay but not the interpretation. There is a long game that we are not paying attention because humans are so self obsessed and awed by their accomplishments and empowerment.

It wasn't so long ago that I too subscribed to the "cancer hypothesis". Then I noticed that humans function in exactly the same way as insect's imaginal discs when they undergo metamorphosis. In brief, when an insect pupates it changes from being almost entirely consuming form to a reproductive form. The reproductive form is often short-lived compared with the growth stage. Once an insect goes into its cocoon, its imaginal discs (until then, dormant thickenings of the epidermis) become active and proceed liquefy all internal body. The resultant "mush" is a useful form that the discs use as resources to construct the body parts of the new, reproductive form of the insect. It's remarkable to think that, at one point during metamorphosis, the insect's body contains only this goo plus the imaginal discs (each disc correlating to an body part that it forms the basis of).

When the imaginal discs start acting, the insect's immune system initially identifies them as a threat and attacks tho discs. However, the immune system is also overcome, consumed and rearranged. Then reproduction is complete and often the insect dies soon afterwards. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old and has less than a billion years of habitability left before the heating Sun renders the planet uninhabitable. Many of the Earth's organisms reproduce not long before dying.
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Purpose

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote:
Nick_A wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Some have said that fallen Man on earth living out of proportion is like a cancer. If this is true, is it advisable to spread this cancer which consumes resources on the body it inhabits well out of proportion onto other worlds it would consume and destroy?
The cancer analogy is popular. When cancers create order far more complex and sentient than their hosts I might agree. Until then, we can be sure that humans are neither parasites or cancers but part of the biosphere's function. The "cancer" and "parasite" analogies are simply based on emotion, ergo, understandable dismay with humanity's destructiveness. I share the dismay but not the interpretation. There is a long game that we are not paying attention because humans are so self obsessed and awed by their accomplishments and empowerment.

It wasn't so long ago that I too subscribed to the "cancer hypothesis". Then I noticed that humans function in exactly the same way as insect's imaginal discs when they undergo metamorphosis. In brief, when an insect pupates it changes from being almost entirely consuming form to a reproductive form. The reproductive form is often short-lived compared with the growth stage. Once an insect goes into its cocoon, its imaginal discs (until then, dormant thickenings of the epidermis) become active and proceed liquefy all internal body. The resultant "mush" is a useful form that the discs use as resources to construct the body parts of the new, reproductive form of the insect. It's remarkable to think that, at one point during metamorphosis, the insect's body contains only this goo plus the imaginal discs (each disc correlating to an body part that it forms the basis of).

When the imaginal discs start acting, the insect's immune system initially identifies them as a threat and attacks tho discs. However, the immune system is also overcome, consumed and rearranged. Then reproduction is complete and often the insect dies soon afterwards. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old and has less than a billion years of habitability left before the heating Sun renders the planet uninhabitable. Many of the Earth's organisms reproduce not long before dying.
The question if humanity as it now exists is a cancer on earth is not so easy. If interested, read this simple short article. You'll have to admit it does seem to describe what we are doing. Has our collective purpose actually become a cancer? Not too ego inflating an idea.

https://www.quora.com/Is-humanity-a-cancer-on-Earth
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Present awareness
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Re: Purpose

Post by Present awareness »

I would describe cancer as growth for the sake of growth, with no consideration for the host. Humans have grown to over 7 billion with no end in site. The resources of the planet will be depleted eventually, so humans do fit the description of what cancer does. Wars or disease have helped to keep human population in check in the past, but with advances in medicine and avoidance of war, population may very well get out of hand.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Ace9
Posts: 20
Joined: January 7th, 2017, 5:51 pm

Re: Purpose

Post by Ace9 »

I would suggest that any discussion around what constitutes value needs to begin with some underlying agreement on the fundamental question of purpose...

The question of value arises from our conscious awareness, which is to suggest that our brains are responding to some type of input from the environment. The incredible thing about our brain is the evolutionary capacity to make such fine distinctions. I think we tend to overlook the incredible density,complexity and sophistication that is our brain.

Our brain response, reflected in what we call our conscious awareness, assigns value to an event or object because it ultimately has the potential to increase or decrease our chance of survival. We often think of survival as an obvious or traumatic event. An immediate threat with potentially harmful consequences. Our brains have also acquired the ability to make much more subtle distinctions , as well as everything else in between. We can be assured that if the brain is assigning value to an action/behaviour or an object, than it does so with an innate recognition of advantage. In other words the brain associates all events with a sense in favor of competitive advantage.

Part of our brain's socialization enables us to be predictive (survival trait). In other words our brains have an almost instantaneous ability to recognize the actions and behaviors of our fellow humans or any recognizable physical even that might negate our survival. The brain will respond (fight or flight) in accordance with this power of predictability (genetic predisposition) Our success or failure is what determines which genetic package will have the best chance of being passed on to the next generation.

In short, our brains assign value to anything that would have the potential to enhance our survival, and the opportunity to reproduce.

Quite simply the purpose of all life is to survive and reproduce. The beauty of human life is our evolutionary capacity for conscious reflection derived from full theory of mind (TOM) that in turn enables us to experience life in all its rich diversity.
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Sy Borg
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Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Purpose

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote:
Greta wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


The cancer analogy is popular. When cancers create order far more complex and sentient than their hosts I might agree. Until then, we can be sure that humans are neither parasites or cancers but part of the biosphere's function. The "cancer" and "parasite" analogies are simply based on emotion, ergo, understandable dismay with humanity's destructiveness. I share the dismay but not the interpretation. There is a long game that we are not paying attention because humans are so self obsessed and awed by their accomplishments and empowerment.

It wasn't so long ago that I too subscribed to the "cancer hypothesis". Then I noticed that humans function in exactly the same way as insect's imaginal discs when they undergo metamorphosis. In brief, when an insect pupates it changes from being almost entirely consuming form to a reproductive form. The reproductive form is often short-lived compared with the growth stage. Once an insect goes into its cocoon, its imaginal discs (until then, dormant thickenings of the epidermis) become active and proceed liquefy all internal body. The resultant "mush" is a useful form that the discs use as resources to construct the body parts of the new, reproductive form of the insect. It's remarkable to think that, at one point during metamorphosis, the insect's body contains only this goo plus the imaginal discs (each disc correlating to an body part that it forms the basis of).

When the imaginal discs start acting, the insect's immune system initially identifies them as a threat and attacks tho discs. However, the immune system is also overcome, consumed and rearranged. Then reproduction is complete and often the insect dies soon afterwards. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old and has less than a billion years of habitability left before the heating Sun renders the planet uninhabitable. Many of the Earth's organisms reproduce not long before dying.
The question if humanity as it now exists is a cancer on earth is not so easy. If interested, read this simple short article. You'll have to admit it does seem to describe what we are doing. Has our collective purpose actually become a cancer? Not too ego inflating an idea.

https://www.quora.com/Is-humanity-a-cancer-on-Earth
I'm not convinced that the similarities between humans and cancer are anything more than superficial. The blue-green algae that flooded the Earth with oxygen, killing off about 90% of species, are not considered a cancer. The new oxygenated Earth lead to a multitude of more complex and interesting organisms, including humans.

When the Sun has sterilised the Earth's surface in under a billion years' time, will that be the absolute end, or will the Earth's story and history continue elsewhere? If the story does continue it will only be human civilisations and their products to facilitate it (barring the occasional microbe sent into space by an meteor strike). Not such a cancerous dynamic IMO, Nick.
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