What will happen if the US government outlaws contraception?

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Spraticus
Posts: 132
Joined: January 29th, 2014, 6:43 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Spraticus »

Steve3007 wrote:
It needs to produce better outcomes for the group than would result from not following it
Ah but, how do we define better outcomes for the group? Opinions seems to vary as to the emphasis we give to group benefits over protection of individual rights. A simple consideration of the benefits to a group can lead to a "tyranny of the majority" or a lack of consideration for the rights of individuals.

For the non religious there are no morals without groups. Morals define the relations between members of groups. If your individual is on their own in the wilderness there are no moral issues unless they hold some sort of religious or similar ideas about the place of man in relation to the world. I said nothing about the balance between individual rights and group rights but I would suggest that the fact that rights imply duties rather undermines your position. Your right to life is only as good as my duty to allow it.

I asked no questions about US law and care nothing for your supreme court. Obama and Clinton are none of my concern so your diatribe is irrelevant. I am not American and I'm glad not to be part of your appalling political disaster.
Supine
Posts: 1017
Joined: November 27th, 2012, 2:11 am

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Supine »

Metro LA as rich as the rich European country of the Netherlands. But this:
Versus downtown Amsterdam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiPPQkDLcSY&t=3017s

Or homeless in Amsterdam:
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Steve3007 »

Spraticus:
For the non religious there are no morals without groups. Morals define the relations between members of groups. If your individual is on their own in the wilderness there are no moral issues unless they hold some sort of religious or similar ideas about the place of man in relation to the world
I agree. I was simply noting that there appears to be a variety of opinions in the world as to the balance between protecting the rights of individuals and acting for the collective good of the group.
I said nothing about the balance between individual rights and group rights...
Agreed. I brought that up.
...but I would suggest that the fact that rights imply duties rather undermines your position.
What position?
I asked no questions about US law and care nothing for your supreme court.
I do not possess a supreme court.
Obama and Clinton are none of my concern so your diatribe is irrelevant.
What diatribe are you referring to?
I am not American and I'm glad not to be part of your appalling political disaster.
I don't possess a political disaster. You appear to believe that I am American. Why is that? Is my nationality important to you?
Supine
Posts: 1017
Joined: November 27th, 2012, 2:11 am

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Supine »

Spraticus wrote: I asked no questions about US law and care nothing for your supreme court. Obama and Clinton are none of my concern so your diatribe is irrelevant. I am not American and I'm glad not to be part of your appalling political disaster.
Post #1 is a post about Mike Pence an American politician and Vice President of the United States and therefore is a question pertaining to the legal system of the USA, not Italy's the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia's (the king as absolute monarch of which Obama bowed before), or England. And the Highest law in the United States is the US Constitution. The US Federal Government is divided into three branches, one of which is the US Supreme Court. The US Supreme Court declares itself the sole and final interpreters of the US Constitution. Post #1 can not be discussed--pertaining to its question if contraception could become tried as murder in the United States due to the views of Vice President Pence--without considering the US Supreme Court.

Obama and Hillary Clinton are relative to any historical considerations of US involvement in wars. Just as former President Bill Clinton would be has he oversaw US military intervention in the Serbia region, and forbade the United States military involving itself in stopping the Rwandan genocide primarily carried out by machetes (not tanks and assault rifles). Bill Clinton supposedly tried to discourage the United Nations from using military forces from intervening in Rwanda. But all of these people want to use US military forces, with NATO military forces, in expanding US empire and confronting Russia at its boarder. I can tell you Russia is a far greater threat to not only the US military but to mainland USA than the primitive killers of Rwanda with machetes in their hands. Russia has ICBM nukes that once launched, cannot be turned back, and will reach their target US city in 30 minutes. One of those nuclear ICBM's Russia has will wipe out something like 3/4 the entire state of New York and produce such high levels of radioactive contamination that it will leave that region of New York State uninhabitable for over 1,000 years. Did Obama or Hillary tell you all that? No, they told you Trump was evil and stupid from wanting to reduce military tensions with Russia. Did Obama or Hillary tell you all that because the US marched NATO forces into a base in the Ukraine, started setting up a nuclear capable missile system to attack Russia with if need be, that Russia has responded by ramping up nuclear arms race and developing a new ICBM nuclear weapon, the most powerful the world has ever known? That new ICBM will be able to obliterate the entire geographical territory of Texas and the entire geographical nation-state of France. And given England is far tinier than the geographical size of France that means that one nuke could obliterate the entire British civilization in one single strike.

But, you all are worried about Mike Pence views on a fertilized female egg.
Spraticus
Posts: 132
Joined: January 29th, 2014, 6:43 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Spraticus »

that was the topic.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Steve3007 »

Supine:
And given England is far tinier than the geographical size of France that means that one nuke could obliterate the entire British civilization in one single strike.
If they nuke England and thereby destroy British civilisation, as you've described, I guess I'll have to leave British civilisation behind and go live in Wales.
Spraticus
Posts: 132
Joined: January 29th, 2014, 6:43 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Spraticus »

Steve3007 wrote:Spraticus:
For the non religious there are no morals without groups. Morals define the relations between members of groups. If your individual is on their own in the wilderness there are no moral issues unless they hold some sort of religious or similar ideas about the place of man in relation to the world
I agree. I was simply noting that there appears to be a variety of opinions in the world as to the balance between protecting the rights of individuals and acting for the collective good of the group.
I said nothing about the balance between individual rights and group rights...
Agreed. I brought that up.
...but I would suggest that the fact that rights imply duties rather undermines your position.
What position?


I may be mixing up replies to you and replies to Supine who's posts are angry, incoherent and irrelevant.
I asked no questions about US law and care nothing for your supreme court.
I do not possess a supreme court.
Obama and Clinton are none of my concern so your diatribe is irrelevant.
What diatribe are you referring to?
I am not American and I'm glad not to be part of your appalling political disaster.
I don't possess a political disaster. You appear to believe that I am American. Why is that? Is my nationality important to you?
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Steve3007 »

Spraticus:
I may be mixing up replies to you and replies to Supine who's posts are angry, incoherent and irrelevant.
You also seem to have hidden your reply halfway through a re-quote of my post. It took me a while to spot this one! :)

Anyway, if you stick around long enough you'll get used to Supine's style. A lot of posters on this site have their own distinctive style and some of them appear to be pathologically incapable of doing anything other than repeating the same single message over and over again. See the posters called R6 and Syamsu for strange examples of this phenomenon.
Spraticus
Posts: 132
Joined: January 29th, 2014, 6:43 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Spraticus »

I find the layout here quite confusing, and the fact that some posts are held up before being made public means that a quick reply can appear under the wrong post.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Steve3007 »

I'm not sure why some of your posts are held up before posting. It doesn't seem to happen for me, so it may be because you're a relatively new member and your posts possibly have to be read by a moderator before being published.

Regarding layout: I tend to quote snippets of other people's posts and reply to them. I do that by copying the text and pasting it in between quote tags in square brackets. I usually do that in notepad, separately from the website and then paste the whole thing into here when I'm finished.
Spraticus
Posts: 132
Joined: January 29th, 2014, 6:43 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Spraticus »

Thanks for that.
User avatar
Lucylu
Posts: 676
Joined: October 1st, 2013, 2:32 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Lucylu »

Supine wrote:
As for your questions, the Supreme Court Justices wrote comments on why they supported legalized abortion. It had nothing to do with environmental protection, worry of unsustainable population growth, or climate change. They remarked abortion needs to become legal so that it can empower women financially. That is to say so that women can compete with men in a capitalist for profit world of business that values employees that work long hours, travel when told, and are not restricted by having to take care of children. Abortion allowed women to opt out of the demands and obligations of motherhood in their view. Secular anti-evolutionist they were given their religiosity in their mental conceptions that biological evolution was flawed unfair and probably immoral by the physiological and anatomical asymmetry of sexual reproduction. In other words, "Mother Nature" was a big old meanie and ridiculously unfair for allowing females to get impregnated but not males. For American capitalist and secular religious construction of the fundamental immorality of all of that was the more moral and rationale "force" in the world and not flawed, stupid, mean "Mother Nature."

In my view the world is not over populated, won't be, and under replenishment through low birth rates is a bigger problem for some countries. I also support global warming and hope this min-ice age the earth is in quickly warms up and the glaciers melt. Humans are closer to tropical creatures per the Theory of Evolution and can survive naked in hot environments like the Amazon Jungle, with enough forested protection from the sun, but would die naked in the cold winters of Wisconsin and North Dakota.
I heard an interesting fact today (interesting to me anyway!)... The only consistent difference between males and females in the mammalian kingdom is basically that females carry large immobile gametes while men carry smaller, more mobile gametes.

Contraception has indeed been a powerful force helping the feminist movement. The down sides are of course that women may have forgotten what the feminine is in the midst of all the bra burning and heady freedom. Maybe women were forced or opted to emulate the masculine role in order to survive in the capitalist men's club. Women are free to behave badly, to behave like mysogonists, but are they free to behave like women? I do worry that girls would make very different choices about who they had sex with if they had to think instead, do i want to have this man's babies? I'm not sure we've really seen what women are capable of yet. It has been development in a limited, establishment that is slow and resistant to change.

That said, and more towards the OP, I am not in favour of being precious about preserving life at all costs. In fact I think we need a bit less holier than though morality and a bit more kindness, e.g. start putting people down if they are, for example, savage or severely mentally impaired. Let zygotes be gone! Think how many sperm get wasted by young men every day!! Billions!! No one is crying over trying to save them. But women are always made to feel guilty if they aren't precious about their eggs. Its just a bias of current society.

The main thing that the government's role has to be in all this, in my humble opinion, is to allow for choice. There are all kinds of people in the world, and so its only right especially on contentious issues such as abortion etc to allow each person to make their own decision. The right of the individual to choose should be sacrosanct.

Steve3007 wrote:
If they nuke England and thereby destroy British civilisation, as you've described, I guess I'll have to leave British civilisation behind and go live in Wales.

Ha! Poor old Blighty. Is it me or do Americans all secretly want to bump us off?! I want to be around for global warming. Bring me sunshine!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
Spraticus
Posts: 132
Joined: January 29th, 2014, 6:43 pm

Re: What will happen if the US government outlaws contracept

Post by Spraticus »

another topic, global warming. If the UK was going to get lots of sunshine I would love it but unfortunately the current wet and windy climate is likely to intensify. If the breakdown in the relationship between the previously cold polar areas and the warmer areas further south continues then the situation may even become worse with frequent spells of arctic weather breaking out and chilling much of Europe. The consequences could be catastrophic.
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