Psychopaths and Blameworthiness

[LuckyR]

You are clear on the difference between sympathy and empathy, right? They are not really similar beyond the vaguest sense.

Of course any individual can be intellectually challenged, but my point that psychopaths are not, as a group unable to understand societal rules is valid.

I think empathy and sympathy are very closely related and can almost - but not quite - be used interchangeably. Here's the internet definition of empathy: Empathy is the capacity to understand or feel what another person is experiencing from within the other being's frame of reference, i.e., the capacity to place oneself in another's position.

Technically one could understand the feelings of another without any sympathy for that person - but that's getting into sociopathic territory. A sociopath - a person without concern for anyone but himself - might be able to analyze the emotions in another and use it to fake sympathy - but in my opinion that isn't really empathy - that's an intellectual activity. The basic idea of empathy is that you literally feel the pain (or happiness) of another person - in a reduced version, of course. It's an instinctual emotion that I believe evolved initially so that a mother would feel the pain and needs of her newborns almost as if they were her own pain and needs, especially in humans, since babies are helpless and would die without someone devoted to their care. And then evolution spread that to other family members and eventually to others in the groups or communities, because it aided in bonding together and cooperating and therefore surviving better.

You forgot to include the internet definition of sympathy. Not identical.

I agree that a sociopath will not be able to empathize for exactly your reasoning (since it is essentially the definition of the problem). OTOH, a sociopath can intellectually understand the Law at minimum and follow it (since avoiding illegalities does not require empathy, though it is helped by having it). Reaching for much higher fruit (beyond legalities) a sociopath who was motivated could approximate regular social interactions to the point of having a social network, friends etc.

[Wilson]

Lucky, I agree with your conclusions, and we're just talking about definitions here, not ideas. Here is the internet definition of "sympathy":
1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"
synonyms: compassion, caring, concern, solicitude, empathy; More
2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"
synonyms: rapport, fellow feeling, affinity, empathy, harmony, accord, compatibility; More

According to that, empathy is a synonym of definition 1, and "common feeling" in definition 2 is a fairly close approximation, too. I agree that they don't have exactly the same meaning, but it's pretty close. How do you see the difference? Do you consider it empathy if a sociopath understands the emotions of someone else but feels none of them? I don't, but again it's just a matter of definition, not concept.

[Supine]

The purpose of dictionaries are to provide definitions to words as they are commonly used in the era in which the dictionary is copyrighted. Therefore, words can be given new definitions in dictionaries and slang words if used frequently enough added to a dictionary. That latter part in particular I remember being discussed in a first year English course at the community college I attended. I think we watched a short video touching on all the slang words being added to new editions of American English dictionaries. The issue is pertinent to the economical use of words in a language, and the French would claim the English language has too many words, and communication in English is prone to get muddied because of that.

But I digress.

Colloquially the words sympathy and empathy are interchangeable, clear synonyms. But in the broader American and British literary traditions, writers distinguish between empathy and sympathy in meaning. Nonetheless, I think most of them would agree the two concepts are closely related or at least that sympathy can overlap with empathy.

You can empathize (attempt to understand by trying to put yourself in "their shoes") with Kentucky hillbillies that voted for Donald Trump but not sympathize with their political and cultural views. That possible. Although, in real life the vast majority of Hillary Democrats (not Bernie Democrats) and McCain Republicans did not empathize with them. The psychopath in this case would be indifferent to them whereas most Hillary Democrats in particular where not indifferent to them but hateful and belittling of them.



This passage, composed by author J.D. Vance, a Yale graduate, Republican, and former US Marine that served in combat in Iraq, illustrates empathy as writers would see it. That he views himself as a hillbilly among them, indicates sympathetic leanings as well.

Nor am I an unbiased observer. Nearly every person you will read about is deeply flawed. Some have tried to murder other people, and a few were successful. Some have abused their children, physically or emotionally. Many abused (and still abuse) drugs. But I love these people, even those to whom I avoid speaking for my own sanity. And if I leave you with the impression that there are bad people in my life, then I am sorry, both to you and to the people so portrayed. For there are no villains in this story. There's just a ragtag band of hillbillies struggling to find their way--both for their sake and, by the grace of God, for mine.

From Hillbilly Elegy, page nine, last paragraph.

[Wilson]

I ask again, to clarify: Do you think the sociopath who understood someone's feelings but did not experience them in any way was empathizing? Not trying to pin you down, just trying to understand what you believe "empathy" to be, by its working definition for you. I agree that there is some difference in common use of empathy and sympathy in that sympathy implies feeling the pain of another while empathy has to do with getting into the head of the other regarding any kind of emotion or motivation.

As someone who believes that empathy was the original mechanism that evolution used to eventually develop morality, including altruism and group identity, I see it as a fundamental quality that's within almost all of us and is instinctual rather than cognitive.

[Supine]

I ask again, to clarify: Do you think the sociopath who understood someone's feelings but did not experience them in any way was empathizing? Not trying to pin you down, just trying to understand what you believe "empathy" to be, by its working definition for you. I agree that there is some difference in common use of empathy and sympathy in that sympathy implies feeling the pain of another while empathy has to do with getting into the head of the other regarding any kind of emotion or motivation.

As someone who believes that empathy was the original mechanism that evolution used to eventually develop morality, including altruism and group identity, I see it as a fundamental quality that's within almost all of us and is instinctual rather than cognitive.

You can't empathize if you can't understand the feelings of another. Empathy provides "mind reading" not necessarily for love and compassion always but so that a predator, prey, or opponent might accurately predict the oppositions move, especially if he or she has not observed a pattern of behavior in that individual opponent. Such as, he always goes to get a glass of water at noon, or he always grabs a beer or glass of alcohol to drink any time he is placed under stress. You could observe those patterns and not need the ability to empathize to accurately predict your opponents move under those scenarios.

But in other cases where your individual opponent or a foreigner is a complete stranger to you, then it requires empathy, understanding of their feelings to make accurate predictions about their next move when you apply your own form of pressure on them. You have his 12 year-old niece locked in some box in some warehouse and inform him you intend on profiting from her by forcibly selling in an underground sex industry to men.

But there are variables. And even endowed with empathy we might misjudge. Most of us might expect fright, rage, violence, or the request to ransom his niece. But our opponent could turn out to be a child molesting psychopath that was always sexually attracted to his own 12 year-old niece. Now, he is not afraid for her, not afraid of us, but wants to either be monetarily cut in on the crime or have sex with her or both, with the threat he otherwise will go to the cops irrespective of the threat we give that we will strangle her then dismember her corpse and make all of it disappear.




So, the socio-path needs some ability to have a feeling sense of others emotions. He may not feel sorry for someone that gets punched in the face, due to years of child abuse, but he must be familiar with that feeling from early memories, early cases in which he felt that for others, until the fires of abuse burned it out of him.

The psychopath may never have felt it at all in his life. But through observation of others reactions he or she has learned like an actor how to play a role on cue.

[LuckyR]

Lucky, I agree with your conclusions, and we're just talking about definitions here, not ideas. Here is the internet definition of "sympathy":
1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"
synonyms: compassion, caring, concern, solicitude, empathy; More
2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"
synonyms: rapport, fellow feeling, affinity, empathy, harmony, accord, compatibility; More

According to that, empathy is a synonym of definition 1, and "common feeling" in definition 2 is a fairly close approximation, too. I agree that they don't have exactly the same meaning, but it's pretty close. How do you see the difference? Do you consider it empathy if a sociopath understands the emotions of someone else but feels none of them? I don't, but again it's just a matter of definition, not concept.

The following (also a generic Dictionary.com sourced thing) is more helpful, especially to this thread:

"To sum up the differences between the most commonly used meanings of these two terms: sympathy is feeling compassion, sorrow, or pity for the hardships that another person encounters, while empathy is putting yourself in the shoes of another."

Not identical, perhaps better summed up as empathy is a subset of sympathy (not actually true though it is difficult to actually find someone who is empathizing who is also not sympathizing since one has a much lower bar than the other).

More to the point: a sociopath is absolutely incapable of empathy (in fact it is part of the definition of the word). I don't see sociopaths professionally but it seems like there is a sliver of a chance that some could slide into a zone within the definition of sympathy.