Money and Ethics

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
User avatar
Ulrich
New Trial Member
Posts: 9
Joined: September 21st, 2017, 3:13 am

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Ulrich »

In your question you strictly exclude all the bad consequences that usually accompany a crime, such as theft (Generally the perpetrator might get caught as a result of his crime and/or the victim would suffer a financial loss and so on). Therefore, from a perspective of moral consequentialism, you will have trouble to defend the wrongness of the theft. However, there are other ways to assess the moral value of the theft, the most obivious one being the Categorical Imperative of good old Immanuel Kant. The C.I. is explicity not founded on any consequentialist argumentation, but rather on the idea that self-contradiction is evidently wrong in the eyes of every rational being. Your thought experiment is quite good, insofar as it points out the weaknesses of consequentialist thinking.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand »

Although money is very useful in society it creates a barrier to the spread of knowledge and understanding and thereby destroys the most valuable prize that humanity possesses, I do not know how this should be handled or corrected but money has become a disease that is destroying the world and I see no way to stop this destruction.
User avatar
Frost
Posts: 511
Joined: January 20th, 2018, 2:44 pm

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost »

Jan Sand wrote: February 1st, 2018, 8:41 pm Although money is very useful in society it creates a barrier to the spread of knowledge and understanding and thereby destroys the most valuable prize that humanity possesses, I do not know how this should be handled or corrected but money has become a disease that is destroying the world and I see no way to stop this destruction.
At the same time, we wouldn't have computers or the internet without money...
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand »

Turing who was one of the fundamental explorers into computers certainly was not interested in money nor was Einstein or Newton or Socrates. Money is a system of control of the real wealth of the planet that idiots like Trump and the whole financial sector of the world used to enslave civilization so they can make wars and live in mansions with more room than they could ever need. It is a frightful disease controlled by insane monsters who hate everybody but themselves and like any cancer it survives on outgrowing every useful organization of humanity to destroy it.
User avatar
Frost
Posts: 511
Joined: January 20th, 2018, 2:44 pm

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost »

Jan Sand wrote: February 2nd, 2018, 1:06 am Turing who was one of the fundamental explorers into computers certainly was not interested in money nor was Einstein or Newton or Socrates. Money is a system of control of the real wealth of the planet that idiots like Trump and the whole financial sector of the world used to enslave civilization so they can make wars and live in mansions with more room than they could ever need. It is a frightful disease controlled by insane monsters who hate everybody but themselves and like any cancer it survives on outgrowing every useful organization of humanity to destroy it.
Money is a medium of exchange that is used to build wealth. That's basic economics.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand »

And there are basic economics that date to the earliest civilizations which clearly indicate that momey's prime usage was used to keep people indebted to control them. This is the current system of credit cards that force people to pay for the use of their own money use and to impoverish people for falling behind on usury interest rates. It's a prime method of social control and now even democratic processes are under the thumb of those who have the money power to control all the machinery of democratic government. It will kill us all.
User avatar
Frost
Posts: 511
Joined: January 20th, 2018, 2:44 pm

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost »

Jan Sand wrote: February 2nd, 2018, 1:29 am And there are basic economics that date to the earliest civilizations which clearly indicate that momey's prime usage was used to keep people indebted to control them. This is the current system of credit cards that force people to pay for the use of their own money use and to impoverish people for falling behind on usury interest rates. It's a prime method of social control and now even democratic processes are under the thumb of those who have the money power to control all the machinery of democratic government. It will kill us all.
People always find ways to control others, but if it weren't for money there wouldn't be modern civilization let alone the electronic device you are using to access this forum. Nor would the internet exist which spreads information around the world to a staggering degree, rather than being "a barrier to the spread of knowledge and understanding."

Now if we focus on maintaining the rights of all equally and enforcing strict property rights, then corruption, manipulation, and coercion can be dramatically reduced. Then money will provide even greater benefit than we already see.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand »

I admire your optimism but you have no basis whatsoever to conclude that all technological progress is due only to money. You are, of course, perfectly free to indulge in your own prejudices in the matter, as I am in mine. But since there has not existed a form of civilization without money you have no way to know whether or how that might function. The internet was not even imagined a mere half century ago. If nothing else, the rise of forms like bitcoin indicate that the current form of money, wherein it encourages technologies that are making life on the planet impossible, may have different forms - although bitcoin itself is not working in that direction. That the financialization of the current economics of the world which has destroyed much of the industry of the USA is a prime example of social catastrophe out of mere monetary considerations and the rise of robotics and automation which looks to remove human workers from a large percentage of industry leaves the current money situation in a most peculiar condition insofar as the benefits to the majority of humans are concerned. Both the banks and the government regularly create huge quantities of money merely by digital notation but the realities of food and materials and energy are not so easily made real. Money is a useful illusion but it is a fundamental fantasy and might well be found an impediment to life on the planet.
User avatar
Frost
Posts: 511
Joined: January 20th, 2018, 2:44 pm

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost »

Jan Sand wrote: February 2nd, 2018, 2:26 am I admire your optimism but you have no basis whatsoever to conclude that all technological progress is due only to money. You are, of course, perfectly free to indulge in your own prejudices in the matter, as I am in mine. But since there has not existed a form of civilization without money you have no way to know whether or how that might function. The internet was not even imagined a mere half century ago. If nothing else, the rise of forms like bitcoin indicate that the current form of money, wherein it encourages technologies that are making life on the planet impossible, may have different forms - although bitcoin itself is not working in that direction. That the financialization of the current economics of the world which has destroyed much of the industry of the USA is a prime example of social catastrophe out of mere monetary considerations and the rise of robotics and automation which looks to remove human workers from a large percentage of industry leaves the current money situation in a most peculiar condition insofar as the benefits to the majority of humans are concerned. Both the banks and the government regularly create huge quantities of money merely by digital notation but the realities of food and materials and energy are not so easily made real. Money is a useful illusion but it is a fundamental fantasy and might well be found an impediment to life on the planet.
Money is a medium of exchange. You cannot develop complex economies and civilizations without a common medium of exchange, otherwise you cannot get above primitive barter economies that do not allow for the specialization of labor necessary for civilization.

When you say that "Money is a useful illusion but it is a fundamental fantasy and might well be found an impediment to life on the planet" I can tell you if you eliminated money in the world you are eliminating a medium of exchange, and doing so would lead to the death of billions.

You are right about the problem of being able to create money out of thin air; this is a tremendous problem, and is precisely why we need a gold standard with 100% reserve banking. All else is fraud and criminal. The ability to print money robs from the poor and gives to the ultra rich. Strict gold standard 100% reserve monetary policy and strict enforcement of private property rights would prevent that from occurring and we can reap the benefits of money as a medium of exchange which helps us to build wealth and civilization.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand »

As Nixon discovered and implemented, the gold standard was an impediment to economic development. And those strong advocates of property rights are the same people who turn people into property and the deaths of millions is a standard celebration of that prominent 1% that are now driving the entire planet to total catastrophe. Nobody has to pay for the oxygen in the atmosphere or the growth of ocean coral. Humans are animals like other animals and there was no necessity for money to turn a tyrannosaurus into a sparrow. We are natural phenomena whereas, like vampires and fairies and gods , money is a human fantasy and currently an impediment to the reality of survival.
User avatar
Frost
Posts: 511
Joined: January 20th, 2018, 2:44 pm

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost »

Jan Sand wrote: February 2nd, 2018, 2:56 am As Nixon discovered and implemented, the gold standard was an impediment to economic development.
Nonsense. He took the U.S. off the international gold standard to prevent countries from holding us to it which costs us money when we continued to inflate our money supply.
Jan Sand wrote: February 2nd, 2018, 2:56 am And those strong advocates of property rights are the same people who turn people into property and the deaths of millions is a standard celebration of that prominent 1% that are now driving the entire planet to total catastrophe. Nobody has to pay for the oxygen in the atmosphere or the growth of ocean coral. Humans are animals like other animals and there was no necessity for money to turn a tyrannosaurus into a sparrow. We are natural phenomena whereas, like vampires and fairies and gods , money is a human fantasy and currently an impediment to the reality of survival.
Complete nonsense. This is not any kind of argument against anything I said. Money is merely a medium of exchange. If you take it away you take away the ability for people to make economic transactions which build wealth and provide people with, you know....food and other necessities of survival. If you eliminate money you are left with barter which cannot support modern societies. Barter can only support primitive societies since it inhibits the ability to make transactions and inhibits the formation of the division of labor necessary for modern civilization. If you take away money you would be killing a very large portion of the world's population an destroy civilization. To say "Humans are animals like other animals and there was no necessity for money to turn a tyrannosaurus into a sparrow" is an immature daydream that ignores economic theory. Money is absolutely necessary for civilization and there must be strict laws to support its role as a medium of exchange.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand »

You might profit by examining the link at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The ... 5000_Years which details the nature of money and its destructive potentials which are reaching its destructive capabilities in current society. It seem to be very important information you are in desperate need of to dissipate some rather fundamental misconceptions.
User avatar
Frost
Posts: 511
Joined: January 20th, 2018, 2:44 pm

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost »

Jan Sand wrote: February 2nd, 2018, 3:19 am You might profit by examining the link at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The ... 5000_Years which details the nature of money and its destructive potentials which are reaching its destructive capabilities in current society. It seem to be very important information you are in desperate need of to dissipate some rather fundamental misconceptions.
Please provide an actual argument rather than linking to a book that is obviously clueless about economic theory.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand »

I entered this discussion on the hopes you might live up to my expectations of rationality. I apologize for my mistakes.
User avatar
Frost
Posts: 511
Joined: January 20th, 2018, 2:44 pm

Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost »

Jan Sand wrote: February 2nd, 2018, 3:57 am I entered this discussion on the hopes you might live up to my expectations of rationality. I apologize for my mistakes.
So you're not even going to try to make an argument?
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021