Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

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Belindi
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Belindi »

Nick_A wrote:
Guilt is inflicted on a person by respected others or society itself. Inflicting guilt is one of the greatest mistakes secular religion makes. It can destroy another psychologically, Genuine remorse is the experience that we suffer the human condition. Rather than crippling, remorse serves to awaken us to reality. We see that we are the "wretched Man" and can strive to become balanced not to please others but to help ourselves and our connection to higher consciousness so as to become what we ARE.
Is in general psychologically true. But Nick's blaming "secular religion" is a bad idea .Blaming secular belief for the infliction of guilt doesn't aid us in the quest for "higher consciousness".

Religions are sources of guilt consciousness. Both religions and secular beliefs can be founded upon forgiveness of self and others which is the way to transform guilty feelings into genuine wise remorse.
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Lark_Truth
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Lark_Truth »

I second what Eduk said. I never expected everyone to agree with me, I was just stating what I thought to be the best viable answer for people to debate upon.

I'm not quite sure what to say in regards to the examples you gave, LuckyR. You do have a point though.

If data was uncovered that polygamy was better than monogamy (which I doubt would ever happen) then it would still be very difficult. I am of the opinion that we just don't understand what it takes to live within a plural marriage. And even then, most plural marriages that have instituted in the past have merely been nothing but harems. A perfect polygamist marriage in which all those involved loved each other like siblings instead of objects or enemies would be extremely rare, and probably was back when most cultures practiced it. Look at how difficult it is for some to maintain even a monogamist marriage! You hear about divorces between heterosexual couples left and right! Going on that sort of evidence, no one - until there is a full understanding on how a polygamist marriage would work, which will be a long time - should go into a plural marriage.
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Belindi
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Belindi »

Polygamy works well enough when there are surplus women who require to live under the protection of a male relative. When men have been killed in warfare young women find themselves without brothers, cousins or fathers to protect them.
Nick_A
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Nick_A »

Belindi wrote:Nick_A wrote:
Guilt is inflicted on a person by respected others or society itself. Inflicting guilt is one of the greatest mistakes secular religion makes. It can destroy another psychologically, Genuine remorse is the experience that we suffer the human condition. Rather than crippling, remorse serves to awaken us to reality. We see that we are the "wretched Man" and can strive to become balanced not to please others but to help ourselves and our connection to higher consciousness so as to become what we ARE.
Is in general psychologically true. But Nick's blaming "secular religion" is a bad idea .Blaming secular belief for the infliction of guilt doesn't aid us in the quest for "higher consciousness".

Religions are sources of guilt consciousness. Both religions and secular beliefs can be founded upon forgiveness of self and others which is the way to transform guilty feelings into genuine wise remorse.
How can we speak of higher consciousness if we don't recognize the distinction between guilt and remorse. Forgiveness is a step leading from guilt into remorse? The Bible describes it well:
John 8 King James Version (KJV)

8 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
People assumed the woman was gulilty of breaking biblical law. People always want to accuse another of anything. In modern times we have accusations of bigotry, sexism, xenophobia, xenaphobia and lord knows what else. It never dawns on these righteous disciples of PC justice that they are not without sin. Of course if any of them felt remorse over what they ARE, it would be all different. It is too insulting to be acted upon so everything continues as is.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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LuckyR
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by LuckyR »

Lark_Truth wrote:I second what Eduk said. I never expected everyone to agree with me, I was just stating what I thought to be the best viable answer for people to debate upon.

I'm not quite sure what to say in regards to the examples you gave, LuckyR. You do have a point though.

If data was uncovered that polygamy was better than monogamy (which I doubt would ever happen) then it would still be very difficult. I am of the opinion that we just don't understand what it takes to live within a plural marriage. And even then, most plural marriages that have instituted in the past have merely been nothing but harems. A perfect polygamist marriage in which all those involved loved each other like siblings instead of objects or enemies would be extremely rare, and probably was back when most cultures practiced it. Look at how difficult it is for some to maintain even a monogamist marriage! You hear about divorces between heterosexual couples left and right! Going on that sort of evidence, no one - until there is a full understanding on how a polygamist marriage would work, which will be a long time - should go into a plural marriage.
My point wasn't to debate plural marriage. Rather to point out that factoids that declare the superiority of lifestyle X is taken by those who adhere to that lifestyle very differently than those who do not. The latter look for weaknesses in the original data (in order to debunk it) whereas the former merely nod their heads in silent agreement and wonder why other folks bristle.
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Lark_Truth
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Lark_Truth »

LuckyR wrote:My point wasn't to debate plural marriage. Rather to point out that factoids that declare the superiority of lifestyle X is taken by those who adhere to that lifestyle very differently than those who do not. The latter look for weaknesses in the original data (in order to debunk it) whereas the former merely nod their heads in silent agreement and wonder why other folks bristle.
That is a very good point, LuckyR. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
I have kind of seen things like that in life, as you have described them, LuckyR. Where, I don't remember exactly, but from the way you have described it it does sound really familiar.
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LuckyR
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by LuckyR »

Lark_Truth wrote:
LuckyR wrote:My point wasn't to debate plural marriage. Rather to point out that factoids that declare the superiority of lifestyle X is taken by those who adhere to that lifestyle very differently than those who do not. The latter look for weaknesses in the original data (in order to debunk it) whereas the former merely nod their heads in silent agreement and wonder why other folks bristle.
That is a very good point, LuckyR. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
I have kind of seen things like that in life, as you have described them, LuckyR. Where, I don't remember exactly, but from the way you have described it it does sound really familiar.
Oh, it is a ubiquitous experience for those out of the mainstream. There is nothing quite as notable as poor folks getting lectured about poverty from the wealthy, or Blacks getting lectured about race issues from Whites or parents listening to simple and obvious "solutions" to parenting dilemmas from the childless, women getting told by men all about women's topics, the list is quite long.
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Eduk »

You have surely heard of confirmation bias Lark_Truth?
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Lark_Truth
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Lark_Truth »

Eduk: I looked the definition up online, and it read: "the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories."
If you are referring the said definition to me than I must claim guilty as charged.

Question: Should we allow culture to be the main or assisting force in what defines us?
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Eduk
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Eduk »

I recommend thinking before believing. I also recommend changing your mind when you have new evidence. I also recommend proportioning belief to the evidence. Lastly it's important to want to know the truth, not want what you know to be true. Culture is fine but you shouldn't do anything because of culture.
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Dolphin42
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Dolphin42 »

It's impossible to refrain from doing things because of culture. It's the water that we would swim in if we were fish. It's like saying you shouldn't do anything because of your personality.
Eduk
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Eduk »

Yes sorry I am not explaining myself well. I didn't say your culture didn't influence you (it obviously has a huge influence), I'm just questioning how many things should you do because they are your culture as opposed to doing those things for other reasons. Your language is cultural and you learn it unconsciously, so it automatically has a large effect. But given a conscious choice you would still wish to learn your parents language in order to communicate with them, I would say communication trumps culture (at the rational level).
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Yes, sorry, I guess I kind of knew that was what you probably meant and I was just scoring cheap points. When you've got a few minutes to spare before starting work it's difficult to avoid the temptation to do that kind of thing. Not very philosophical. :D
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Re: Should Morals Be Judged In A Cultural Context?

Post by Eduk »

There should be somewhere a league table with everyone's points :)
You were right to question what I wrote though, it wasn't well presented.
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