Is it possible to participate in society without being a pat

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Synthesis
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Is it possible to participate in society without being a pat

Post by Synthesis » July 19th, 2017, 11:05 pm

Is it possible to participate in American society without being a pathological liar?

I would like to suggest that American society DEMANDS pathological liar status to participate an any meaningful way. Dis-honesty is omin-present and if you choose to receive of any benefits of American citizenship, you best hone your skills.

Of course, everybody knows this, but nobody will admit it publicly just like no attorney will admit to the crimes they regularly pleasure their clients nor will any physician admit to the mal-practice they ply on the public each and every day in the name of profit for the corporations that decreed that purpose of health [sick] care in the United States was pure profit [at every cost].

Well, it works the same way for everybody else, just not as blatant, but pretty darn obvious, just the same. Can anybody reading this claim that they are the lone honest person left in these United States?

-- Updated July 21st, 2017, 10:55 am to add the following --
Synthesis wrote:Is it possible to participate in American society without being a pathological liar?

I would like to suggest that American society DEMANDS pathological liar status to participate an any meaningful way. Dis-honesty is omin-present and if you choose to receive of any benefits of American citizenship, you best hone your skills.

Of course, everybody knows this, but nobody will admit it publicly just like no attorney will admit to the crimes they regularly pleasure their clients nor will any physician admit to the mal-practice they ply on the public each and every day in the name of profit for the corporations that decreed that purpose of health [sick] care in the United States was pure profit [at every cost].

Well, it works the same way for everybody else, just not as blatant, but pretty darn obvious, just the same. Can anybody reading this claim that they are the lone honest person left in these United States?
I completely agree with you, Synthesis. Unfortunately, few wish to discuss the actual issues which confront [what's left of] our nation.

Burning ghost
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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Burning ghost » July 23rd, 2017, 1:41 am

Yes ... or maybe I am just a pathological liar!

I would say society at large rather than just American society tbh ;)

By this I mean we necessarily lie to ourselves and others repeatedly ... I take this as using the term "pathological" in a loose way though. I would not call a "necessity" a "pathological" condition.

Patriotism itself is a rather new tradition so being a "patriot" is really just some made up political jargon akin to religious institutions. They can be founded on sound principles, but they'll always err.

I had an Australian aborigine demand a cigarette from me for being in "his land". When he refused he said he'd put a curse on me. I told him quite plainly it was not his land or anyone's and that any curse he tried to put on me would simply bounce right back at him with double the force. He looked quite shocked because I think he knew I believed exactly what I said (which I did - knowing that a "curse" is an effective psychological tool rather than an actual supernatural force).
AKA badgerjelly

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LuckyR
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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by LuckyR » July 23rd, 2017, 3:19 am

Synthesis wrote:Is it possible to participate in American society without being a pathological liar?

I would like to suggest that American society DEMANDS pathological liar status to participate an any meaningful way. Dis-honesty is omin-present and if you choose to receive of any benefits of American citizenship, you best hone your skills.

Of course, everybody knows this, but nobody will admit it publicly just like no attorney will admit to the crimes they regularly pleasure their clients nor will any physician admit to the mal-practice they ply on the public each and every day in the name of profit for the corporations that decreed that purpose of health [sick] care in the United States was pure profit [at every cost].

Well, it works the same way for everybody else, just not as blatant, but pretty darn obvious, just the same. Can anybody reading this claim that they are the lone honest person left in these United States?

-- Updated July 21st, 2017, 10:55 am to add the following --
Synthesis wrote:Is it possible to participate in American society without being a pathological liar?

I would like to suggest that American society DEMANDS pathological liar status to participate an any meaningful way. Dis-honesty is omin-present and if you choose to receive of any benefits of American citizenship, you best hone your skills.

Of course, everybody knows this, but nobody will admit it publicly just like no attorney will admit to the crimes they regularly pleasure their clients nor will any physician admit to the mal-practice they ply on the public each and every day in the name of profit for the corporations that decreed that purpose of health [sick] care in the United States was pure profit [at every cost].

Well, it works the same way for everybody else, just not as blatant, but pretty darn obvious, just the same. Can anybody reading this claim that they are the lone honest person left in these United States?
I completely agree with you, Synthesis. Unfortunately, few wish to discuss the actual issues which confront [what's left of] our nation.
That is an awful lot of writing about lies with numerous references yet not a single, specific example of these (supposedly ubiquitous) lies. How's about you whip up a brief list of your personal favorites?
"As usual... it depends."

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Razblo
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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Razblo » July 23rd, 2017, 3:30 am

Synthesis wrote:Is it possible to participate in American society without being a pathological liar?

I would like to suggest that American society DEMANDS pathological liar status to participate an any meaningful way. Dis-honesty is omin-present and if you choose to receive of any benefits of American citizenship, you best hone your skills.

Of course, everybody knows this, but nobody will admit it publicly just like no attorney will admit to the crimes they regularly pleasure their clients nor will any physician admit to the mal-practice they ply on the public each and every day in the name of profit for the corporations that decreed that purpose of health [sick] care in the United States was pure profit [at every cost].

Well, it works the same way for everybody else, just not as blatant, but pretty darn obvious, just the same. Can anybody reading this claim that they are the lone honest person left in these United States?

-- Updated July 21st, 2017, 10:55 am to add the following --
Synthesis wrote:Is it possible to participate in American society without being a pathological liar?

I would like to suggest that American society DEMANDS pathological liar status to participate an any meaningful way. Dis-honesty is omin-present and if you choose to receive of any benefits of American citizenship, you best hone your skills.

Of course, everybody knows this, but nobody will admit it publicly just like no attorney will admit to the crimes they regularly pleasure their clients nor will any physician admit to the mal-practice they ply on the public each and every day in the name of profit for the corporations that decreed that purpose of health [sick] care in the United States was pure profit [at every cost].

Well, it works the same way for everybody else, just not as blatant, but pretty darn obvious, just the same. Can anybody reading this claim that they are the lone honest person left in these United States?
I completely agree with you, Synthesis. Unfortunately, few wish to discuss the actual issues which confront [what's left of] our nation.
you have successfully self synthesised.

Synthesis
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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Synthesis » July 23rd, 2017, 11:35 am

LuckyR wrote: That is an awful lot of writing about lies with numerous references yet not a single, specific example of these (supposedly ubiquitous) lies. How's about you whip up a brief list of your personal favorites?
Here are three of my favorites, but, one must keep in mind that our entire society is a fabric of fabrications [note that the most effective lies are those where there is just a smidgen of truth blended into a cauldron of deception].

1. The more you spend, the more you save.

2. The idea of representative government, that, for example, my CA senator can represent not only my interests, but [at the same time] the interests of my 20M closest friends and neighbors.

3. We are here for you.

There are an infinite number of examples.

-- Updated July 23rd, 2017, 11:44 am to add the following --
Burning ghost wrote:Yes ... or maybe I am just a pathological liar!

I would say society at large rather than just American society tbh ;)

By this I mean we necessarily lie to ourselves and others repeatedly ... I take this as using the term "pathological" in a loose way though. I would not call a "necessity" a "pathological" condition.

Patriotism itself is a rather new tradition so being a "patriot" is really just some made up political jargon akin to religious institutions. They can be founded on sound principles, but they'll always err.
Here's the problem. We are born into a condition that is untenable, that is our citizenship. You are literally owned by the government that happens to be in place through no fault of your own. From this initial lie [that a government can essentially own you], emanate all the lies that must follow [those that support the state/economic system].

Like every Ponzi scheme, one lie must support those which preceded.

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LuckyR
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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by LuckyR » July 24th, 2017, 4:20 am

Synthesis wrote:
LuckyR wrote: That is an awful lot of writing about lies with numerous references yet not a single, specific example of these (supposedly ubiquitous) lies. How's about you whip up a brief list of your personal favorites?
Here are three of my favorites, but, one must keep in mind that our entire society is a fabric of fabrications [note that the most effective lies are those where there is just a smidgen of truth blended into a cauldron of deception].

1. The more you spend, the more you save.

2. The idea of representative government, that, for example, my CA senator can represent not only my interests, but [at the same time] the interests of my 20M closest friends and neighbors.

3. We are here for you.

There are an infinite number of examples.

.
Those are definitely lies. However #1 is told by marketers only, so is far from ubiquitous , #2 is not believed by anyone, so is essentially meaningless and #3 can be told by parents truthfully and by candidates/parties as (again) lies that everyone knows is a lie. Ho hum, boring.

But one thing that your examples bring up is: if everyone knows that a statement is not true, does it qualify as a lie, meaning how can something be a deception if no one is deceived?
"As usual... it depends."

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Greta
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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Greta » July 24th, 2017, 9:22 am

I like the general premise of the OP, Lucky. To be fair, "pathological" could at times be replaced with "strategic", but otherwise it's hard to imagine success in politics or management without being able to play dirty. I know that the closer I came to senior management (as an info provider and analyst, not a player) the less trustworthy the people around me became. I really had to watch my Ps and Qs.

Not that they were bad people but they simply prioritised the work over workmates (and the trolley problem's usual answer suggests that their stance is the more ethical, so I'm not inclined to judge). The downside is they were more prepared to stab you in the back if you appeared to step out of line. Forgiveness becomes harder to come by as pay packets increase. Admission of errors is increasingly seen as risky unreliability rather than simply human. So apparent (but not actual) mistakes are exploited by less scrupulous competitors for advancement or funding - and there's someone like that in most large workplaces. The problem is, when no one dares admit to screwing up, if you admit your screw ups then you look like a pratt, a loser amongst all of your reportedly perfect colleagues. So lying becomes a survival strategy.

Corporate and political bearpits are intimidating for the innocent and the gentle. They are not places for nice people.

Do any politicians rise above it the grime? None, really. Why? Because lying and smearing and dodgy backroom dealing are effective. Truth telling tends to be ruthlessly punished in public life via distortion and misrepresentation. It's a better strategy not to leave the opening, so the truth is often not told.

Still, I'm a starry-eyed optimist and believe that, while lies are currently a successful strategy (amongst other dodgy rhetorical devices), humanity will somehow advance beyond the nonsense and become more reality-oriented.

Fan of Science
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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Fan of Science » July 24th, 2017, 10:54 am

Are you serious? I thought this was supposed to be a philosophy forum, but about all I am seeing here are posts involving unfounded assertions being passed off as legitimate arguments. Merely claiming that everyone who participates in society in America is a pathological liar does not make it true. While some people are pathological liars, not everyone is. Furthermore, there is definitely no requirement that anyone be a pathological liar to participate in society. I don't believe Carl Sagan was a pathological liar and he participated extensively in American society. That's just one example showing that the opening post has no merit. False premises can never justify a conclusion, and one should always be on the alert for arguments that simply state what is supposedly "obvious" without any rational evidence.

Synthesis
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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Synthesis » July 24th, 2017, 1:13 pm

Fan of Science wrote:Are you serious? I thought this was supposed to be a philosophy forum, but about all I am seeing here are posts involving unfounded assertions being passed off as legitimate arguments. Merely claiming that everyone who participates in society in America is a pathological liar does not make it true. While some people are pathological liars, not everyone is. Furthermore, there is definitely no requirement that anyone be a pathological liar to participate in society. I don't believe Carl Sagan was a pathological liar and he participated extensively in American society. That's just one example showing that the opening post has no merit. False premises can never justify a conclusion, and one should always be on the alert for arguments that simply state what is supposedly "obvious" without any rational evidence.
FOS, don't take it personally. You can make an argument for anything and everything. Understanding the relative nature of human thinking is the key.

How I might characterize something in particular is personal. I can make an airtight case for the assertion that everybody is a pathological liar, by definition. If you don't believe this is the case, then perhaps you can tell me why this is so instead of whining about it.

-- Updated July 24th, 2017, 1:23 pm to add the following --
Greta wrote:I like the general premise of the OP, Lucky. To be fair, "pathological" could at times be replaced with "strategic", but otherwise it's hard to imagine success in politics or management without being able to play dirty. I know that the closer I came to senior management (as an info provider and analyst, not a player) the less trustworthy the people around me became. I really had to watch my Ps and Qs.

Not that they were bad people but they simply prioritised the work over workmates (and the trolley problem's usual answer suggests that their stance is the more ethical, so I'm not inclined to judge). The downside is they were more prepared to stab you in the back if you appeared to step out of line. Forgiveness becomes harder to come by as pay packets increase. Admission of errors is increasingly seen as risky unreliability rather than simply human. So apparent (but not actual) mistakes are exploited by less scrupulous competitors for advancement or funding - and there's someone like that in most large workplaces. The problem is, when no one dares admit to screwing up, if you admit your screw ups then you look like a pratt, a loser amongst all of your reportedly perfect colleagues. So lying becomes a survival strategy.

Corporate and political bearpits are intimidating for the innocent and the gentle. They are not places for nice people.

Do any politicians rise above it the grime? None, really. Why? Because lying and smearing and dodgy backroom dealing are effective. Truth telling tends to be ruthlessly punished in public life via distortion and misrepresentation. It's a better strategy not to leave the opening, so the truth is often not told.

Still, I'm a starry-eyed optimist and believe that, while lies are currently a successful strategy (amongst other dodgy rhetorical devices), humanity will somehow advance beyond the nonsense and become more reality-oriented.
As it has been said many times over [and I paraphrase], in times like these, simply telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

-- Updated July 24th, 2017, 1:33 pm to add the following --
LuckyR wrote:
But one thing that your examples bring up is: if everyone knows that a statement is not true, does it qualify as a lie, meaning how can something be a deception if no one is deceived?
A lie and a deception can be two very different things.

A lie is a false statement. Deception implies intent.

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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Fan of Science » July 24th, 2017, 2:04 pm

You don't get it. A philosophical argument is not simply anything and everything --- far from it. Premises have to be laid out in a manner that provides support for a conclusion. In selecting the premises, they need to be true. The OP here does not follow the discipline of philosophy, as many posts on this forum also fail to do. So, why bother calling this a philosophy site when it is so lacking in philosophy?

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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Greta » July 24th, 2017, 6:43 pm

Fan of Science wrote:You don't get it. A philosophical argument is not simply anything and everything --- far from it. Premises have to be laid out in a manner that provides support for a conclusion. In selecting the premises, they need to be true. The OP here does not follow the discipline of philosophy, as many posts on this forum also fail to do. So, why bother calling this a philosophy site when it is so lacking in philosophy?
If you believe yourself to be amongst the best of the forum, why not leave or help raise standards rather than whinge about others? Your complaints might have been fair if this was a gated specialist forum, but it is a public one so your comments are thus invalid.

Philosophy is a specific field with specific techniques but it is also a basic human activity undertaken by all, not necessarily a rarefied activity for the elite that must be conducted in one way only. Do you think many professional philosophers are going to come to a forum to give away their ideas for free? If we only wanted pros and undergraduates there'd be no forum. So you'd best become accustomed to amateurs or find yourself a place you deem worthy.

The OP, despite errors, made an important point about the need to lie in public life that is too often taken for granted IMO.

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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Synthesis » July 24th, 2017, 7:32 pm

Fan of Science wrote:You don't get it. A philosophical argument is not simply anything and everything --- far from it. Premises have to be laid out in a manner that provides support for a conclusion. In selecting the premises, they need to be true. The OP here does not follow the discipline of philosophy, as many posts on this forum also fail to do. So, why bother calling this a philosophy site when it is so lacking in philosophy?
FOS, I understand what you are saying and you are correct from a very narrow perspective. I am not particularly interested in any one perspective, only to to explore the nature of thinking. The subject matter I raised was one that many people never consider, so I thought I might challenge the group.

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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Eduk » July 30th, 2017, 4:46 am

Well you can't have everything. If you want to be a part of a club you need to confirm to the rules or make up your own rules. If you make up your own rules you may end up with a club of one. So yes all politicians who work their way up a political party have to lie. Management are politicians. You can work around this by either extreme good fortune. Incredible talent. Or by starting your own party/club/work place.
This is just the cost of a society.
If you live a life without compromise don't be surprised if Dr Manhatten obliterates you.

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GraphicsGuy
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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by GraphicsGuy » August 2nd, 2017, 12:56 pm

Synthesis wrote:Is it possible to participate in American society without being a pathological liar?
Online dating is impossible without lying. No one actually wants real honesty.

I don't have much of a "filter", but I've had to learn to install one just to keep social situations from becoming too awkward... :(

:lol:

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Re: Is it possible to participate in society without being a

Post by Fan of Science » August 2nd, 2017, 2:41 pm

So, let's see, instead of admitting I am right about what philosophy is an admin tries to excuse the failure of so many people here following philosophy by making an unfounded personal attack against me, which philosophy recognizes as a logical foul? And that is supposed to cause people to support this forum as a philosophy site? How does that work?

Then, the same admin relied on the fallacy of the appeal to the popular, claiming that whatever most people want to consider as philosophy is magically philosophy.

I'll also note that in the point I made, I never stated anything about myself being a professional philosopher, so when an admin raises that as an issue, once again, we have a fallacy taking place. It's like when an art critic states that a painting sucks. That may be true, even if the critic can't paint worth a darn. After all, the critic never claimed that he was a better painter, just that the painting under consideration was not very good. It's a bogus, but, unfortunately popular tactic, to personally attack a critic with the "argument" --- "let's see if you can do better."

If the admins here don't know what philosophy even is and don't seem to care about what philosophy is and are wedded to fallacies in the arguments they make, then this forum is really not worth my time. I'm officially out, and you have fun with your fallacies and bogus claims.

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